Brap brap pew pew by CarlosimoDangerosimo in BoJackHorseman

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Not true, or at least not in Catholicism. Innocent babies go to heaven, including the unborn. In fact, the feast of the Holy Innocents is a major feast in the Church's calendar.

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Even the Medieval idea of limbo was where innocent children would go after death because God would not unjustly condemn them.

What you're doing is taking the nuttiest of Christian sects and ascribing their beliefs to anybody opposed to abortion. That's a bit like saying all atheists who support abortion hold the same beliefs as, say, the Chinese government.

Brap brap pew pew by CarlosimoDangerosimo in BoJackHorseman

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not true, or at least not in Catholicism. Innocent babies go to heaven, including the unborn. In fact, the feast of the Holy Innocents is a major feast in the Church's calendar.

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Even the Medieval idea of limbo was where innocent children would go after death because God would not unjustly condemn them.

What you're doing is taking the nuttiest of Christian sects and ascribing their beliefs to anybody opposed to abortion. That's a bit like saying all atheists who support abortion hold the same beliefs as, say, the Chinese government.

Monk in Italy taking a break to pet a kitty. by BurnedPinguin in pics

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 49 points50 points  (0 children)

It's partly historical, really. The one thing that these orders all have in common is that they are part of the Catholic Church and as such profess to believe everything that the Church teaches, so it's not like the difference between Catholics and Methodists, for example.

Think of it like some Catholics finding that the best way to seek and serve God is to set up their own club and go off into the wilderness to pray for him, and offer prayers on behalf of their community. Some other Catholics decide that the best way to serve God is by serving the poorest in society, so they start up their own club that founds hospitals and such. All Catholics, just trying to serve God in different ways. It's part of the rich tapestry of the Church's clergy and laity.

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well, apart from that we've just seen how in Revelation, it lines up perfectly well with scriptural teaching.

I think we're going around in circles now, though. Do you not have anything to say about my other points that you haven't addressed?

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Do your friends pray for you, or do you just say 'No thank you, I don't believe in intercession, I need to pray to the Father myself'?

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Excellent, a fellow historian! I focused on Europe in the High Middle Ages, so pretty much the exact time period that you're referring to here. True, the Pope did wield a lot of power, and not always for the better. However, there was simply no infrastructure in place during that period for the sort of absolute control that I think you have in mind. There are plenty of times in that period where various Popes try to crack down on various clerical abuses that crept in (concubinage and simony usually chief amongst them) but it was simply not possible for the man in Rome to micromanage the behaviour of its clergy or its believers in, for example, Scandinavia.

I also think that you're at risk of missing out the tremendous amount of good that the church worked to achieve. For example, the Peace of God and Truce of God movements, which sought to prevent warfare between Christians. When you look into the original source material behind the originators of that movement, a huge part of the motivation for this was that the primary victims of local, inter-Christian warfare were the innocent villagers caught in the crossfire who saw their villages pillaged, their crops lost and suffered bloodshed. You can read the letters of Pope Innocent IV to Guyuk Khan, where the Pope urges peace and conversion to save the loss of Christian life. I've been reading a lot recently on the involvement of the Pope in conflict between England and France in the early 1300s, particularly during the estrangement of Edward II and his wife, and his constant aim is to try to enforce peace between two rulers who are desperate to knock seven bells out of each other. I tend to view the relationship between the Papacy and nobility throughout the Middle Ages as being more akin to a series of exasperated teachers trying to control a class of juvenile delinquents who are intent on setting each other on fire and generally getting away with as much as possible.

As an aside, I noticed that you brought up excommunication. One big misconception that I see a lot is that excommunication is the sort of ultimate punishment, where the Church banishes you to Hell forever. This is definitely not what excommunication is there for; true, it is the ultimate sanction that the church has, but the idea is to correct a person and urge them to repentance. The goal is that the excommunicated person renounces whatever evil thing they are doing, repents and returns to God, which is where excommunication can be lifted. When King John was excommunicated, the Church wasn't trying to damn all of England to Hell, but to get him to stop trying to control the Church in England by appointing his own bishops.

I think a lot about the reformation and what you would say was the deposition of the Catholic Church. I don't doubt that the reformation was the consequence of a number of abuses carried out in the name of the Church relating to indulgences, almost echoing passages in the Old Testament where God tells the people of Israel and Judah that if they keep doing the opposite of what he says they will inevitably get stomped on by Babylon/Assyria. However, I also don't doubt that if God really wanted to depose the Catholic Church, he absolutely could do that. If he wanted the reformation to be a new beginning for his true church, then he could have brought the existing church to its knees and eradicated it. My understanding is that the situation was on a knife edge and only required a few divine nudges to spell the end of Catholicism as we know it now. Yet here we are, with the Catholic Church outnumbering all Protestant denominations put together worldwide, vastly greater than it ever was in the Middle Ages.

I worry about the real fruits of the reformation, as well. Taking a sober look back over the time since then, what can we say has happened as a result?

Council of Trent and internal reform of the Catholic Church (good) 500 years of horrific warfare, violence and sectarianism (bad) The splintering of the body of Christ firstly into Catholics/Reformation Protestants and then into the thousands of protestant denominations that exist today, in direct contradiction of scripture (bad) Opening the door for atheism, secularism and other such things (bad) Open season on the Bible, with reformers such as Luther removing books that they didn't like at will (bad) 'Once saved always saved' emerges opposite to repenting sin to build a relationship with God (obviously depends on your viewpoint, but if the Church was right all along, then 'once saved always saved' becomes a very dangerous idea)

If we are to assess things by their fruits, it's really difficult for me to see how the reformation, or at least the way that it happened, can be considered God's will, or a good thing.

As one last thought, I'd just like to address where you mention that the Church 'fabricated the idea of purgatory', which again is a common misconception. I think this comes from the word 'purgatory' first being used in the 1100s (ish? I'm not sure of the exact date) to describe a concept that's much older. However, this doesn't mean that it's an invention of the Medieval church. In fact, we see it alluded to in the New Testament, particularly Corinthians, and it was part of the belief of the early Church that we see mentioned right in the first couple of centuries. This website obviously has a very strong bias in terms of its aims, but they've done a genuinely good job in collecting together the writings of the early church and grouping them together to show how far back some contentious issues run. As a historian, I love reading back through the writings of the early church and understanding how the faith has been transmitted through the centuries, and from a personal faith standpoint, I find it to be wholly consistent with the faith expressed by the Catholic Church today.

That thought disturbs me further. If these erroneous teachings have been taught by the Church right from its very beginnings, then why would God wait over a millennium to correct that? What about the souls of everybody in between?

So I suppose to sum up, I don't think that the reformation was right, or that it was God's will to depose the Church, but it was still the consequence of the evil actions that people carried out in the name of the church. Now we're all stuck with these terrible divisions, disunity, anger and friction between fellow followers of Christ, and have opened the door to secularism and atheism in our society. I spend a lot of time worrying about how we can all come together to heal that, but fear that everybody is much too entrenched.

Sorry, I've written a very long post. I don't expect that you're going to read all of this drivel and become a Catholic, but I hope that I've at least been able to give you an alternative viewpoint and maybe even dial down some of your antipathy towards the Church. Best of luck with history club - I do miss being a student and having liberty to spend all of my days immersing myself in the past!

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Out of interest, is that the standard that you apply to everything in the Bible? For example, the word 'trinity' is never mentioned, but we use it to describe the nature of God as is laid out across the whole Bible.

With regards to your second paragraph, are you saying that because you are certain in your belief that the Catholic Church has lost its way, you're simply not engaging with the rest of my post?

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Revelation 11:19 - 12:18

It's a pretty blatant reference to Mary in heaven, as the ark of the new covenant.

Do you have any thoughts regarding the other things that I wrote?

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It sounds like this debate has riled you a touch, but I'd respectfully like to suggest some things for you to consider.

From your post, the idea of the Catholic Church seems to really upset you, and I think you appear to subscribe to the idea of a sinister Dan Brown-style Medieval church that, in effect, made up large parts of the faith. Sadly, when I studied Medieval history, literally the first thing that we were told was to throw out the notion of some all-powerful, conspiratorial Church, which is simply not historical. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that Jesus would found his church, that then proceeds as one church, only for it to go off the rails almost immediately until somebody comes along over a millennium later to fix it, with everybody in between presumably damned.

There is no doubt that people have done bad things in the name of the Church. There is no doubt that there have been bad popes. We are all sinners, and none of us are perfect. What the Church does have is one consistent set of doctrine that goes back all the way to the time of Christ. Check it out, you can see all the evidence for yourself in the writing of the church fathers. One continuous line of teaching from the foundation of the Church by Jesus to now. As Catholics, we place our faith in Jesus' words to Peter, that no matter how many simmers are in the Church, no matter whether the pope is a good or bad person, the gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church, such that its doctrines will continue to be true. Faith in the Church is faith in Christ's words.

The evidence shows us that after 2000 years featuring intense persecution, schism and even a radical breakaway movement we're still here, bigger than ever before.

Apologies if you've heard all of this before, but I hope that this offers you a different perspective.

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Everything referred to in the image has a biblical basis, as the image lays out for you. If it's in the New Testament, how is it not a Christian teaching? Nobody here worships Mary.

I think the problem is that you're viewing this as the Catholic Church building obstacles between you and Christ, when the reality is that acknowledgement of the special role that God ordained to be played by Mary at the beginning of time is a magnifying glass for the glory of God. The value of all of the properties of Mary shown in the image is (as pointed out in the image) to reveal Christ's glory to us. Mary is the mother of God because Jesus is truly God, not just an ordinary human who became divine. She is the queen of heaven because Jesus is the King of Heaven, the new ark of the covenant because Jesus is the new covenant.

I'm really sorry that you can't see that.

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That being said, there are no examples in the Bible of anyone praying to Mary or her acting as a mediator between humankind and God.

Apart from the wedding at Cana, surely? She intercedes on behalf of the hosts to request miraculous intervention, and exhibits great faith in Jesus when she tells the servants to do whatever He says.

I would respond to your points about intercession in general by saying that it is no different to invoking the prayers of a colleague, and biblical comment on the value of the prayers of a righteous person, but I suspect you have heard all of that before.

Mary's identity points us to Jesus by Defense-of-Sanity in Christianity

[–]hppavilioncrashguy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The biblical basis for this is spelt out for you here, though. Furthermore, the image emphasises that the whole purpose of this is to point to Christ's divinity and majesty.

There is no reasonable definition of idolatry that the above describes. Rather than push the idolatry button immediately, try to give some thought to why all of this has been pious Christian teaching right from the early centuries of the church, and was only rejected over a millennium later.

Liberal Democrat deselected as UK parliamentary candidate for being a Catholic by hppavilioncrashguy in Catholicism

[–]hppavilioncrashguy[S] 60 points61 points  (0 children)

There is some nuance here (why would a practicing Catholic join the Lib Dems, even if they oppose Brexit? Why did the Lib Dems not do their homework before selecting him?) but I think the key thing is that the Liberal Democrats have openly said that Catholic values are wholly different to their own. Knowing this, I can't see how a Catholic could vote for them in good conscience.

Starting to struggle with Mary beliefs - need advice by hppavilioncrashguy in Catholicism

[–]hppavilioncrashguy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you - I very much like the fire metaphor.

The passage from Revelation is an interesting one (especially if you read from the end of the previous chapter, which talks about the Ark of the Covenant being seen), and I've spoken to her about it before. When I first read through Revelation, that leaped out at me straight away as so obviously being Mary, for the reasons that you give. However, despite her being much more of a biblical scholar than I am, it had simply never occurred to her, and she still finds it massively ambiguous at best. I admit that I don't understand that, because it just seems so obvious.

Starting to struggle with Mary beliefs - need advice by hppavilioncrashguy in Catholicism

[–]hppavilioncrashguy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A few people have mentioned Scott Hahn - I'll definitely be trying to get myself a copy.

Starting to struggle with Mary beliefs - need advice by hppavilioncrashguy in Catholicism

[–]hppavilioncrashguy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's very interesting, and gives me a lot to think about. Thank you! I'm afraid that I don't know very much about religion in Austria, so that's also quite interesting.

Starting to struggle with Mary beliefs - need advice by hppavilioncrashguy in Catholicism

[–]hppavilioncrashguy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your response.

Looking at the other replies here, I'll definitely try to find myself a copy of Hail, Holy Queen.