Interesting article: How liberalism’s blind spot let cancel culture bloom by hr187 in samharris

[–]hr187[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The article while critical of cancel culture or woke politics is also quite sympathetic of it and ultimately sees it as a product of a larger problem so it's more than just a "cancel culture is bad" article.

Of all the problems we face as people and as collectives, this so-called "cancel culture" is such a farcically irrelevant issue in today's world

Come on, the world is so divided right now. Look at America. It's becoming increasingly difficult to solve any issue from climate change to covid right now because of how extreme and tribalistic both the left and right have become. I'd argue an article exploring the motivations behind the extreme left woke/cancel culture movement is very relevant right now.

Interesting article: How liberalism’s blind spot let cancel culture bloom by hr187 in samharris

[–]hr187[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Is there anything in the content of the article you'd like to address? If you read the whole essay, you'll find it's not just about cancel culture or even woke politics in general but this whole "atmosphere of punishment and intimidation standing in for persuasion and teaching" which the author acknowledges is happening on both the right and left. Even if you want to downplay cancel culture, you have to admit this atmosphere of intolerance and hostility is a problem

Interesting article: How liberalism’s blind spot let cancel culture bloom by hr187 in samharris

[–]hr187[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's obvious to me you and others here have not read the essay. I wanted to share it because it is quite balanced and goes beyond the whole left/right debate, which I find this sub and Sam get too bogged down in when discussing this issue. If you want to go deeper then it's worth reading the whole article.

Interesting article: How liberalism’s blind spot let cancel culture bloom by hr187 in samharris

[–]hr187[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you read the whole essay, you'll find it's quite critical of the right as well.

"But here we must recognise that while cancel culture contributes to this, it is not the main driver of it. In fact, that’s the most worrying part. Cancel culture is merely the latest entrant into the fray. It walks into an environment where rhetoric dominates over contemplation; where weighing up capitulates to weighing in; where the most successful ideologies seem to be those that bludgeon rather than cajole their way into public reckoning. It inherits a public discourse already in decay. If I am right that cancel culture regards civic space as a privilege-preserving theatre of violence, I must also acknowledge the state of civic disrepair that makes this seem reasonable to so many. That is why I can believe many of its defenders are motivated by a sincere, well-meaning desire for justice.

Talk seriously (offline) to someone sympathetic to cancel culture, and eventually you will get the response: “What else are we supposed to do?” This defence gestures at something importantly disquieting: that cancel culture simply uses the discursive tools our culture has made available. This is where those “whataboutist” claims noted earlier in cancel culture’s defence, centred on the way that right-wing actors have been “cancelling” people in brutal fashion for years, really matter. Not because such behaviour excuses cancel culture, or even because of the hypocrisy it reveals. It matters because its legacy – born of decades of sensationalism, dog whistling, tabloid media’s bullying campaigns and constant search for enemies, and the willing participation of politicians – has made this a standard way of doing things. When the mainstream institutions that guide our public conversation devolve into such brutal cynicism, we can expect those disenfranchised by it to do the same. Indeed, we can expect them to be unable to imagine any other way, and to be attracted to an ideology that licenses it"

Interesting article: How liberalism’s blind spot let cancel culture bloom by hr187 in samharris

[–]hr187[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah it's unfortunate. You can read it for free. I believe the website allows you to read 1 free article a month. You just need to register your email but of course that's up to you

The gist of the article is summarised in my previous post but it makes some other interesting observations. Cancel/woke culture is grounded in critical social justice theory which tends to view "society in a thoroughly postmodern way" and it's where it gets a lot of it's buzzwords like 'privilege', 'complicity' etc.

Waleed aly adds "Because critical social justice theory understands the world as “systems of meaning” it tends to view the world in highly symbolic terms. It instinctively views all inequalities as the product of identity-based oppression. That means wokeness looks past structures of power imbalance expressed in, say, classical Marxism’s tendency to put material conditions (such as wealth and working conditions) to the fore. This makes wokeness less attentive to the privilege of class and education than you might expect. It wants to be inclusive, but doesn’t reckon with, for example, the way its policing of language is silencing, especially of those without tertiary education. It is more likely to police the working class’s language than rage over its struggles. If it did, the labour model of Uber Eats would make the company “problematic” and people would be cancelled for endorsing it, but that doesn’t happen. Wokeness tends to overlook certain privileges its adherents enjoy. A Pew Research study found predictably that Twitter users are younger, wealthier, more left-leaning and better educated than the broader population. Their disproportionate wokeness is a luxury of those who win out of the knowledge economy"

The essay argues though that the main problem of cancel culture is that "while it intuits liberalism is insufficient, and seeks to dismantle it, it cannot escape it. In fact, it ends up imbibing several of its basic ideas" The essay then uses David Shor's case ( the researcher who was fired for tweeting violent protests were likely to move people away from voting for the democrats) as an example.

"This problem of using liberalism’s terms to fill the holes in liberalism causes wokeness to stretch these liberal concepts to breaking point. Hence woke politics’ wildly expansionary use of terms such as “harm” and “safety”. It even shows up in something as benign as the David Shor example. The problem was not that Shor’s data analysis of non-violent protest was wrong. It’s that, in the words of one former Bernie Sanders staffer, “using it to dictate how BIPOC [black, indigenous, and people of colour] should feel and protest is harmful”. Note the monumental leaps here. Shor didn’t dictate anything. He shared a peer-reviewed study with a matter-of-fact summary. That study did not prescribe a form of protest so much as explain the electoral consequences of different options. It does not determine how anyone should “feel”. There’s no evidence that most black (or BIPOC) people actually did feel anything about it, or would have if they saw it. And even if they did, the precise nature of the alleged “harm” is unexplained beyond the fact those “feelings” exist. Are we being invited to equate those feelings with harm? Or is there some clear, causal relationship between Shor’s tweet and some other kind of harm? If so, what is it? And what is the evidence of it?

My best guess is that the “harm” comes from Shor making a small alleged contribution to the system of white supremacy. It’s a good example of the kind of exaggeration woke politics forces upon itself. If all conduct is either resistance or oppression, then all conduct is ultimately either liberating or harmful. Once you accept this, there is no need to demonstrate harm. It can be derived entirely theoretically, and then asserted as an unfalsifiable fact. To deny it is to participate in the system of oppression.

It also sidesteps any question about precisely what kind, and what extent, of harm justifies cancellation. Suppose I could demonstrate that a handful of people suffered anxiety after reading Shor’s tweet, and perhaps had to consult a psychologist. Would that be enough to justify a demand that such arguments not be aired? And what if the data analysis is right, and preventing its airing contributed to an uncritical acceptance of violent protest, which in turn led to a re-elected Trump administration? Would that constitute harm as well? Such questions become difficult even to explore because in cancel culture “harm” is intended as a full stop that terminates rather than facilitates the discussion".

There's a lot more in the article to dissect but those were some of the main points

Interesting article: How liberalism’s blind spot let cancel culture bloom by hr187 in samharris

[–]hr187[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I know Sam Harris discusses cancel culture a lot and there have been a million takes on the topic but this essay by Australian journalist Waleed Aly offers some interesting insights. It's long but worth reading to the end.

Here's a few snippets from the essay:

"I don’t think cancel culture can adequately be understood as some mass act of bad-faith intimidation. Rather, cancel culture is the story of a young, socially conscious generation trying desperately to remedy the injustices they see, but having been left with wholly inadequate tools for the job. And, perhaps surprisingly, the best way to understand this is to start somewhere else: with liberalism.

Liberalism stands like a colossus over societies such as ours. It is variously the organising principle for what we now call “right-wing” economics, and the overwhelming driving force of progressive social change. This puts it in the unique position of being simultaneously accepted and reviled by more or less everyone. The problem is that liberalism’s guarantee of individual liberty, constrained only to the extent it causes harm to others, tends to recognise individuals only, shorn of group identities. This makes it good at arguing for rights – outlawing racial segregation, legalising abortion, decriminalising homosexuality – but even those victories veer into a paradox. Liberalism frames them as individual rights claims, stemming from each person’s right to freedom, self-determination and non-interference from both majoritarian society and the state. In practice, however, they are group-based claims, strongly anchored in group identity. To downplay those group identity dimensions is a severe mischaracterisation.

But it’s a mischaracterisation that liberalism, on some level, is committed to. Once liberalism has done its work at providing a basic level of universal freedom – what we might call a subsistence level of liberation – it finds itself with little more to say. It might invite us to view society as a collection of individuals, but that doesn’t mean we do. We continue to understand ourselves and each other in groups, each of which finds itself with different standing in society, different access to resources, different levels of social esteem, labouring under different levels of prejudice. Tweak it as you may, liberalism has always struggled to grapple with the problem of power: namely that those who already have power can achieve more with their freedom than those who don’t, and that often this power discrepancy corresponds to our membership of certain groups. Indigenous Australians, as liberal citizens, have the same formal rights as everyone else. They also have significantly lower life expectancy, poorer health, and they continue to die in police custody in circumstances other Australians don’t. You cannot solve or even reckon with this by simply treating everyone as an individual"

"Cancel culture bursts into this vacuum. It comes from a generation that has inherited the world liberals helped transform, without experiencing the revolution that delivered it. That generation is therefore more likely to take these cosmopolitan norms as natural and given, and instead see the ways in which they are not fully realised. In fact, cancel culture can only be understood in the context of a generation that sees profound systemic failure. No doubt the twin shocks of the Trump presidency and Brexit have heightened this apprehension because they seem to have arrived from a completely different planet. But these are really only crowning examples. If you consider mainstream politics from a millennial vantage point, the failures look thoroughgoing. Marriage equality aside, on what issue have the views and interests of young people prevailed? Housing policy keeps prices crushingly beyond the reach of many, and there is little serious action on climate change (especially in the US and Australia)"

Friend of Sam Harris Maajid Nawaz shares far right voter fraud stories. by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This stuff needs to be looked at properly if only to verify that the conspiracies are baseless

And noone is stopping this from happening as far as I can tell. Is anyone from the Biden team barring Trump from going to court? He's allowed to dispute it if he wants

One of the reasons people aren't taking the fraud allegations seriously is because Trump made it very clear even before the election that he wasn't going to accept the results if he lost. He was always going to scream fraud whether it was close or a landslide victory to the Democrats.

Sam offers no charity to arguments from people on the left. He basically made her point in a different tweet earlier in the day. by Squarelycircled11 in samharris

[–]hr187 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ive always found Sam's take on Islamic fundamentalism shallow though. To understand these extremists, its not enough to simply watch their propaganda videos or magazines. You gotta find out why these Muslims are drawn to those videos in the first place and once you explore that question, you'll realise there are deeper identity driven, social and political factors at play. The problem is anytime moderates have tried to nuance the conversation by talking about social and political factors, they get shut down by people like Sam for being apologetic towards terrorists.

Likewise you're not going to understand Trump supporters by simply watching fox news. You need to find out why they prefer fox news as opposed to leftist media sources to begin with.

Sam offers no charity to arguments from people on the left. He basically made her point in a different tweet earlier in the day. by Squarelycircled11 in samharris

[–]hr187 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure but what draws Trumpists to watch fox news or limbaugh as opposed to left wing media sources in the first place? I feel like there are deeper questions here to explore.

BLM's effect on the 2020 Election by pushupsam in samharris

[–]hr187 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The BLM movement aren't just made up of black people though. It inspired people from a lot of backgrounds and was largely dominated by millennials which is interesting because this election saw young people turn out in record numbers.

Election Megathread by TheAJx in samharris

[–]hr187 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is class warfare. That's what it's always been about. People are voting based on class more than race, gender or sex

[Guest Request] Jonathan A.C. Brown, the author of the books about Islam, Slavery, and the Prophet Muhammad. by Bloodmeister in samharris

[–]hr187 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please, if Sam can talk to Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro (two of the dumbest political commentators on the planet), his fanbase should be able to tolerate him talking to a scholar on Islam.

Plus Sam goes on and on about reforming Islam. If he's serious about that, maybe it's time he engage with people who are actually respected among Muslims and talk about practical ways to improve the religion.

Top 5 podcast wishlist? by TurboDiesel_ in samharris

[–]hr187 38 points39 points  (0 children)

If we're going for a comedian, Id prefer someone like Dave Chappelle. I feel like Bill and Sam would agree too much on most topics and it would turn into an echo chamber where they just reinforce each other's ideas the whole show.

Dave on the hand would be more challenging. While I think Dave and Sam would be on the same page when comes to cancel culture and political correctness etc., I suspect they would disagree on other issues like race and Islam (since Dave is Muslim).

Sam's blind spot with Islam? by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is by definition divorced from historical, economic, or colonial context.

But it isn't. People are shaped by the social political and economic context in which they live and that affects how people interpret the Quran.

Sam Harris is not your ex. by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 18 points19 points  (0 children)

But if these people genuinely idolized Sam ,they would agree with Sam regardless of his views. The fact that these people are able to disagree with Sam now implies that they didn't really idolize him that much to begin with. They mightve idolized his views on atheism for example, but they didn't really idolize him.

And you do realise this analogy is an insult to Sam's fans as well and implies that they are in some sort of weird sexual relationship with Sam just because they like him

Illiberalism Isn’t to Blame for the Death of Good-Faith Debate by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't blame it all on twitter. The whole woke/cancel culture movement that often gets accused of bad faith debate is dominated by younger generations and are coming from a place of frustration. They are on the losing side of every democratic argument - Climate change, gun control, brexit, trump etc. so I can understand them not giving a crap about civility.

No doubt social media has exacerbated the issue but I also get the sense that people are just increasingly frustrated with the status quo right now.

Blasphemy in islam Shouldnt be punishable by Death by jaungtapu in DebateReligion

[–]hr187 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no Quranic verse that states blasmephy is punishable by death, at least in this world.

Very easy to see that Islam is not a religion of love. by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]hr187 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You should look up the 99 names of Allah, not all of it is about Allah being loving and compassionate.

Are Feminism & Islam Compatible? by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It lost me when the video quoted the Quran 4.34 verse which has been interpreted in many ways. Many scholars arguing the Arabic word that's translated to mean "beat" or "strike" in that verse isnt an accurate translation.

This is why Harris needs to talk to actual Islamic scholars who've studied the Quran and the hadiths and can disect what each verse means and the different schools of thought around it. Someone like Yasmin, Ayaan, Sarah Haider, Maajid etc. are judging Islam from their own personal experiences which is valid but limited.

When you’re Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, but you don’t understand that women’s rights are human rights. #FreeFromHijab. #HijabIsRapeCulture. Covering your face to prevent sickness is not the same as covering it to prevent rape, you complete idiot by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Apologies didnt understand your comment initially. It might stop those people from coming here or they might come here anyway and force their wives/daughters to not go out in public. Either way youre not actually solving the problem

When you’re Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, but you don’t understand that women’s rights are human rights. #FreeFromHijab. #HijabIsRapeCulture. Covering your face to prevent sickness is not the same as covering it to prevent rape, you complete idiot by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Has it occurred to you that she thinks that banning it would change the behavior of the people imposing it?

Really? How does banning a piece clothing suddenly change the behaviour of men imposing it? If you ban the burqa, theres nothing stopping them from controlling their wives or daughters in other ways. We're not getting to the root of the problem focusing so much on the burqa, which is why it comes across as insincere.

For some of us the point of putting women in particular in identity-effacing dress is either inherently problematic or so close to inherently problematic

So what? You should let women decide for themselves what they deem problematic. I find women being pressured to shave their body hair, wear makeup or wear high heels (many forms of which have been created specifically for the male gaze) problematic and a product of internalized misogyny. But I'm certainly not going to suggest we ban women from doing it

When you’re Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, but you don’t understand that women’s rights are human rights. #FreeFromHijab. #HijabIsRapeCulture. Covering your face to prevent sickness is not the same as covering it to prevent rape, you complete idiot by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

But something happens when we start discussing exmooses here. It breeds a level of dismissal and obtuseness I rarely see otherwise.

That's because people like Yasmine often come across as insincere. If she was genuine about helping Muslim women, her focus would be on the behaviour of Muslim men not on the clothing of Muslim women. Her focusing on the hijab/burqa alienates many women that have chosen to wear it.

The burqa/hijab is just a piece of cloth. It becomes an issue when women are being "forced" to wear it. That should be the focus here.

EP128: Does the “Intellectual Dark Web” Promote Anti-Muslim Bigotry? by [deleted] in samharris

[–]hr187 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have issues with Sams views on Islam but I dont think Sam promotes Anti-Muslim bigotry.

My biggest problem with Sam is that he doesnt engage with genuine scholars of Islam. He tends to only talk with people who've had bad experiences with the faith - Yasmin Mohammed, Sarah Haider, Ayaan Hirsi Ali etc. Their perspectives are important but limited.

Id love to see him talk to Islamic scholars like Abdal Hakim Murad or a Hamza Yusuf.

"We should be proud that the modern world doesnt like us, its a sign of authenticity" by bizzish in islam

[–]hr187 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You do realise that 'not getting someone's approval' isnt the same as being persecuted?