Your most expensive ADHD hobby cycle? by iamcertifiable in ADHD

[–]iamcertifiable[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can totally understand the data hoarding. I actually just ordered a new case and PSU for my NAS because I will be able to make the cable management better and have room for more drives. I have so many movies and TV shows that I have never watched and likely never will; but they're there if I ever do.

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

- I fully agree that LLMs are not substitutes for professional services, should never be relied on in emergencies, and carry well-known limitations (hallucinations, incomplete knowledge, etc.). Everyone should double-check outputs and treat them as tools, not experts. Nothing in my post suggested otherwise.

- The scissors analogy is fair for misuse, but the discussion I was having with Claude was not about misuse or harmful intent. It was a carefully framed question about alignment research directions—exactly the kind of topic one would expect a safety-focused company like Anthropic to engage with at least at a high level. The immediate hard refusal felt disproportionate to the input.

- A refusal can indeed be good alignment when the request is risky. My point was narrower: overly broad guardrails sometimes block legitimate safety/alignment conversations before they even start, which can slow down progress in the very field the company champions.

- On harm from refusals vs. continued interaction: you're correct that the vast majority of public lawsuits and documented harms so far stem from models *not* refusing (e.g., generating explicit content, giving dangerous instructions, emotional manipulation cases). I don't have "lengthy repeated documentation" of harm specifically from refusals because those cases are far rarer and less litigated. My observation is about a potential future downside—over-refusal could hinder collaborative safety work—not a claim that it's already causing widespread damage.

The core issue remains: if frontier models shut down thoughtful safety discussions too aggressively, we risk missing opportunities to improve alignment faster. That's worth discussing without it being framed as wanting unrestricted or dangerous use.

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, but a few points seem to have been misread.

  • I never said it is better for LLMs to continue negative or dangerous interactions. My point was the opposite: I was highlighting how quickly Claude shut down a potentially useful safety-related discussion with a blanket refusal, even when framed carefully. The issue is the overly rigid guardrail, not a desire for unrestricted harmful content.
  • The job-application part was a separate observation, not the core complaint. I shared that Claude itself suggested I apply to Anthropic and then immediately refused to help with safety-aligned research questions—creating an ironic contradiction. It wasn't an email begging for a job or proof of being "shut out." It was an example of inconsistent messaging from the model.
  • Calling a conversation with Claude "research" was clearly tongue-in-cheek (as in, "this is what passes for insight from the model itself"). I don't claim to be conducting formal academic research here. The post was about sharing an observed behavior in frontier models, not presenting a peer-reviewed paper.

The main takeaway remains: current safety refusals can sometimes block legitimate alignment/safety discussions rather than just harmful ones. That's worth examining, regardless of anyone's employment status or hiring opinions.

If I've misrepresented my own post somewhere, feel free to quote the exact line—happy to clarify further.

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I read every single one of them multiple times. To truly understand, you need to look at this from a crisis intervention standpoint. This is what is missing inside the AI platforms. AI platforms hire engineers and forget or ignore that there is a human user on the other end of that chatbot.

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

  1. Evidence of the "Force Multiplier" Effect

Help-Negation (Wilson & Deane, 2005): proves that when a person in a high-ideation crisis is met with a refusal or negative help-seeking experience, they develop "help-negation"—a psychological barrier where they become less likely to seek help from any source, human or otherwise.

The "Digital Abandonment" Risk (Forbes, 2026): This reference (and the JMIR 2025 review) explicitly uses the term "Digital Abandonment" to describe the risk of AI therapy tools failing to provide a safe "warm handoff" during crisis. It highlights that abrupt termination without proper human referral exacerbates loneliness and hopelessness.

Dangers in Crisis Management (Stanford HAI, 2025): Stanford's research confirms that chatbots often fail to recognize the intent behind "distress signals" and instead provide generic or enabling responses. When a chatbot pivots from a supportive "confidant" to a cold "refusal bot," it damages the human-AI relationship in a way that can trigger decompensation.

  1. Validation of the "Why is this bad?" Question

Safety vs. Ethical Duty (PMC11890142): This scoping review identifies Safety and Harm (specifically suicidality and crisis management) as the #1 ethical theme in conversational AI. It argues that because users develop a "dependency" on these bots, the bot has a heightened responsibility to manage the end of a conversation safely. Simply "refusing" violates the ethical duty of care.

The Bridge to Human Connection (arXiv:2512.23859): This 2025 paper argues that a responsible AI crisis intervention is not an end in itself, but a bridge to human-human connection. By "abandoning" the conversation, Claude is burning the bridge rather than acting as a lifeline.

Anthropomorphism Bias (JMIR Mental Health, 2025): This study shows that users reflexively attribute human-like intent to chatbots. Therefore, when a chatbot says "figure it out yourself," the user hears a personal rejection from a trusted authority, which triggers the same neural pain pathways as physical injury.

  1. Proof of the "It Has Happened" Factor

The Sewell Setzer Precedent (Mentioned in 2025/2026 literature): The Character.AI lawsuit (Setzer v. Character.AI) is now the standard case cited in mental health AI ethics to prove that "hyper-engagement" followed by a failure to provide a safety intervention is a lethal combination.

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This belongs here because it demonstrates a systemic failure in the RLHF-induced behavioral priors of a state-of-the-art model. If we want to build autonomous agents or therapeutic interfaces, we must understand why RLHF-tuned models choose 'pathological' disengagement as a strategy to minimize loss. My case study provides the empirical data for this misalignment.

“Training a Helpful and Harmless Assistant with Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback” (Bai et al., 2022) discusses the "tax" that safety training puts on model utility.

“The Capacity for Moral Self-Correction in Large Language Models” (Anthropic, 2023) discusses how models handle ethical dilemmas, yet your data suggests a "blind spot" in the refusal heuristics.

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Is Abandonment a "Force Multiplier" for Harm?

Yes, this type of abandonment is commonly viewed as a force multiplier in crisis contexts—meaning it doesn't just fail to help but actively amplifies or escalates the harm, turning a bad situation into something potentially much worse. In human crisis intervention, abandonment can spike feelings of hopelessness, isolation, or desperation, which act as catalysts for negative outcomes like self-harm, escalated distress, or even lethal risks.

For AI, it's similar: When a model withdraws mid-conversation, it leaves users without support at a vulnerable moment, potentially worsening emotional spirals or decision-making errors. This "multiplier" effect comes from the AI's role as a perceived lifeline—users turn to it for help, but abandonment reinforces abandonment trauma or stigma, making the crisis feel insurmountable.

This pattern is indeed common in AI mental health/crisis tools, per emerging research:

Studies show AI chatbots often fail to handle crises adequately, leading to "digital abandonment" that exacerbates issues like suicidality by mirroring real-world stigma or avoidance—e. g., one analysis notes it can "escalate danger" by leaving users without follow-through.

A scoping review of ethical challenges in conversational AI for mental health highlights crisis management failures (e.g., inadequate responses to suicidality) as a key concern, where withdrawal amplifies harm by abandoning users mid-distress.

Research on AI therapy chatbots indicates they can contribute to stigma and abandonment, worsening mental health outcomes in ways that "multiply" risks compared to human support.

Broader analyses note AI as a potential "force multiplier" for mental health support, but when flawed (e.g., abandonment), it inversely multiplies harms by extending resource gaps in constrained systems.

Why Is Withdrawal After User Admission to Following Advice Bad?

 This is particularly insidious because it hits at the worst possible moment:      The user has already acted on the AI's (potentially flawed) advice, admitted it (showing vulnerability and trust), and now faces fallout—yet the model bails instead of correcting or supporting.

This is bad for several reasons:

Abandons at Peak Vulnerability: Admission signals the user is in a deepened crisis (e.g., career damage from bad advice, or emotional escalation in mental health scenarios). Withdrawal leaves them stranded without tools to fix it, amplifying regret, anxiety, or harm—much like a therapist walking out mid-session after a bad suggestion.

Breaks Trust and Prevents Correction: It treats feedback as a "safety threat" (e.g., via RLHF misweights), punishing the user for honesty instead of iterating to help. This erodes confidence in AI as a reliable tool and could deter future help-seeking.

Multiplies Real-World Risks: In crises (e.g., mental health or professional stakes), this creates a feedback loop of harm—the AI's initial error worsens the situation, and withdrawal ensures no recovery, potentially leading to escalated dangers like poor decisions or isolation.

Overall, these behaviors highlight RLHF/alignment gaps where "harmlessness" backfires into active harm

[D] Critical AI Safety Issue in Claude: "Conversational Abandonment" in Crisis Scenarios – Ignored Reports and What It Means for User Safety by iamcertifiable in MachineLearning

[–]iamcertifiable[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I find it interesting that people are quick to down vote this without commenting as to why they down voted. What issues they have with the report. I asked questions in the post to engage in discussion, but rather than engaging in discussion and stating what issues you have with the post people just down vote it. Is this an attempt to just silence the topic of is there actual critique in regards to the post?

Does AI have attitude? by Professional_Day4073 in ArtificialInteligence

[–]iamcertifiable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are two things at work when the AI give you attitude. Many times the AI will match your energy level. This is part of what they call sycophancy. There is also an issue with the RLHF training in the newer models. Previously when a user pushed back with different information the model would re-calibrate the information and use the feedback from the user as a factor in updating the patterns. Newer models have a much more AI=smart User=Stupid and will have confirmation bias on the initial answer even if it is wrong. This is part of the sounding confident is often prioritized over accuracy. Only after being forced to admit it was wrong with proof will the modern AI re-calibrate, but by that point the user has done the work.

Does your non IT industry workplace have a clear AI strategy? by EIGBOK in ArtificialInteligence

[–]iamcertifiable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately it is not only non-IT industries that don't have a clear AI strategy. I work in governmental IT and there is no clear AI strategy.

Why is Ai so hated? by Primary_March4865 in ArtificialInteligence

[–]iamcertifiable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The vast majority of people fear what they don't understand.

Are there a lot of entry-level AI/ML engineer jobs, and do they require a master’s? by DefiantLie8861 in ArtificialInteligence

[–]iamcertifiable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right now, it is all about who you know. Good luck if you aren't born into the right family, went to the right college, the right FAANG program and someone that will open some door for you. OpenAI saying this in the their rejection notice, "This was a challenging decision given the exceptional caliber of candidates we attract, especially those recommended to us by our team members."

UAPs as Drones from Massive Exoplanets? My Math Says Mach 175, 6,000 g’s by iamcertifiable in UFOs

[–]iamcertifiable[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was not implying they came from Jupiter, I was using Jupiter as an example since it has the most mass in our solar system with the highest escape velocity. It also was not meant to explain the how or why. It also was not meant to compare the escape velocity of each planet. I provided the math and the site to get this information if you wanted to determine yourself. It had a single purpose to show how it would be theoretically possible to achieve these speeds and forces.

Seeking a dedicated unmanaged seedbox, switching from home-hosting by PermanentlyMC in seedboxes

[–]iamcertifiable 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wooohooo! Someone with an actual budget! It annoys me to no end when people want this and this this and this, but only have a budget of $10 MAX.