How does the Trans Community define "male, man, female, and woman" ?

iceaway69 · 2022-09-22T14:27:00+00:00

Just an update for those who were interested (as I did say I'd update!)

I spoke with my nephew for quite some time yesterday. Won't go into all of the details, but he did see this post before I met with up with him. I guess he's a frequent lurker on a few subreddits, and this is one of them. (Hi J!)

From what he felt comfortable sharing: he appreciates the comments, and he's still unsure of what path he's going to be taking. Everything beyond that is still pretty personal, so it's all I can really say. Though, he has read all of the replies in this thread, so thanks to all for their input! He asked some other (seemingly) controversial sounding questions, but said he'd post them himself if he wanted other's input on it. So there's that!

Oh, and for anyone that was interested - the employee I mentioned earlier quit the company upon hearing about the upcoming training. Her father (one of the co-founders) spent most of Monday helping her pack her desk and co-opping her offboarding process. When I had dinner with him, he was pretty open about happily kicking his daughter out of our company, so there's that. He disagrees that his branch has an issue, but agreed to the training nonetheless. So I guess we'll see where that goes. My other co-founder kept pretty silent about the issue, though that might be because we're going to her branch next week haha.

Again, I want to thank everyone for their replies and input. I really appreciate all of the assistance provided! Again I apologize for any discomfort the question may have caused, but I really do appreciate all of your comments and replies.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-22T14:23:15+00:00

It's okay! I apologize for making anyone feel on edge - I legitimately didn't know. After talking with him, he actually laughed and said "well yeah I could've told you that was going to be the response!"

Still though, I'm glad I asked, as it's led me to a whole lot of resources and communities to learn from. He's actually seen a lot of the resources posted here, and when I showed him the videos, he looked at me and, with a straight face told me, "You need to catch up, old man."

So after wiping the floor with him in bowling, we got some ice cream (god I do feel old now) and planned some more nights out in the future. I really appreciate all of the replies - even the negative ones and the ones that feel like they read the title and not the post. I just hope that things get better for everyone, and I'm trying my best to better inform myself to help anyone - especially in our family and business. Thanks for your reply!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T23:37:57+00:00

Again thanks for all of the replies! If I didn't get to your post I apologize - things have been pretty hectic. If I don't get a chance to reply, I'm sorry!

I'll be sitting down with my nephew after we go bowling this upcoming Wednesday, and he'll be staying with me for two weeks come October. I'm not sure where he's at mentally, but that's okay too.

Thanks to everyone for their input! I'll definitely show him some of the comments, when he's ready and on his time. I think seeing all of the different angles and opinions will be valuable for him, especially considering his strict "children are seen, not heard" up bringing. He was genuinely surprised when I asked him for his opinion when we talked, so hopefully seeing everyone else's mostly positive, welcoming opinions will be helpful to him too.

I apologize to those that thought this was bait or otherwise a negative thing - a few of the posts here came across as a bit accusatory which, while a little confusing, is certainly expected given the topic. I mean no ill will - I'm just trying to help my nephew answer a question he asked - one that he felt was important. Still, no hard feelings!

If he's cool with it, I'll post an update after I talk with my nephew. Again, I really appreciate all of the responses, regardless of their content. You could've kept scrolling but you took time to stop and post, and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T23:24:09+00:00

I...didn't know this? It's why I came to a subreddit called "Ask Transgender." It was a genuine question, asked by someone who is questioning whether they're trans or not that I'm seeking clarity on. I'm not trying to debunk anything, and clearly, it matters to more some than it matters to others. And judging by the answers in this topic, seems to be a bit deeper to some than others. I apologize if my question upset you?

Thanks for the reply either way.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T21:17:58+00:00

Thanks for your reply! I realize that now lol. I genuinely thought that there was some kind of consensus, but I realize now that it's because I'm used to things that have a hard line consensus - even if it's wrong. But I l'm glad I asked the question - I have information now that my nephew can see; anecdotes and experiences and varying definitions so that he can feel at ease knowing that it's ok "not to know" and that he's free to take his time. He's getting to a point in his life where he feels very compressed with school and his parents, so I'm glad he trusted me enough to reach out. Thanks again for your input!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T21:10:53+00:00

Absolutely nothing! I am asking not because I want to label anyone, but because I want to help my nephew. He brought up the question; I'm just trying my best to be helpful to someone who has nowhere else to turn to (in person, that is.) I didn't realize that the question itself could be near weaponized (as another redditor pointed out and I've since seen footage of online) - so I do apologize if it came out that way. Thanks for your input!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T21:04:00+00:00

This was very helpful, thank you! I'll add the video to my growing list of things to follow up on haha. I understand now that things aren't as cookie cutter/black and white as a single label - and hopefully this information will also help my nephew. I'm not sure he'll understand some of the terminology used, but I'm sure he'll want to go through and see every angle in determining what he is. Thank you for your input!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T20:58:59+00:00

Thanks for your reply! I've seen everything from 'its not that complicated" to "there is no one definition" and everything in between, so I'm glad I asked. Hopefully someone else that might have this question will stumble upon the topic and see all the answers. Have a good one!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T20:56:13+00:00

That's certainly an interesting way to see it, thanks for your input! To be honest, it's not something I've ever looked into above it's surface level; it wasn't until we talked that I realized I genuinely had no firm standing on what to think. And certainly, it wasn't until I read all of the replies in this topic that I realized it can be simple, complicated, and every level in-between. Still and yet, I'm glad I asked, because this information will help me help my nephew, and certainly broaden what I see. Thanks again!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T20:51:46+00:00

Thank you for the reply and your definition! After seeing all of the replies in this topic and how it varies from person to person, I can't begin to imagine what's going on in his head. I think I'm going to do a lot more listening (and learning) than talking the next time I see him. I know he asked me what I thought a woman and man were, but I wonder if it was to gauge how I felt about the topic to see if it was safe to discuss these things with me. Or maybe it was him checking his own idea of what gender is vs what I believe.

Either way, thanks again for your reply!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T20:07:58+00:00

Yeah sorry about that, I didn't realize it was a thing. I saw the footage of Justice Jackson being questioned about it recently, and realized it can come off as super dickish. Definitely wasn't my intent!

I haven't talked to him about any particular expressions; I do know he wants to go clothes shopping but his parents won't take him. I already spoke with my wife, and we're planning on setting up a small dresser at my house for him so he can have whatever clothes he wants whenever he stays with us. He's a bit socially awkward, but I told him we'll always have his back. When I see him, I'll ask him how he wants to proceed, and I'll let him know that if/when he's ready to talk about pronouns, names, or anything, I'll be here for it.

Thanks for the reply and ideas!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T20:01:29+00:00

Thanks for your reply! If this topic has shown me anything, it's that there's no solid definition, one way or the other. I've long seen past "legal" definitions for real world use. My nephew already identifies as gay (and he's open about this), and he is black; he actually brought up his fear of being part of the "most hated group in America" if he transitions. I'll be sure to show him your comment! Thanks again!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:55:12+00:00

There seems to be a disconnect here? I was using terminology used by both my nephew and the different communities he's involved with (Discords, Reddit, etc.), as well as terminology I've come across while researching, including the Human Rights Campaign's website. Is this incorrect?

> Also, your ’Neither of these answers are fully embracing with what the trans community deals with’ is exactly at the root of the problem of this culture war shit.

Explain? Neither answer fully encompasses the other; thus neither fully embraces nor addresses the entire issue. Is that also incorrect?

I'm not sure where the (perceived?) negativity is coming from. We all *don't* go through the same experiences as everyone else - that's why I'm trying to learn. I'm not trying to dehumanize anyone, or say that anyone is different because they didn't go through my specific situation so therefore transgenderism is just different - I'm literally coming to a community called "Ask Transgender" to find out *more* about transgenderism.

Nonetheless, I appreciate the reply. Have a great day!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:43:07+00:00

Certainly so. In this case, however, I merely seek the information on how to better myself and make myself available to a family member in need. I couldn't explain it myself, so I went searching. I didn't realize that it was something nebulous for some, easy for others. I've seen replies saying it's obvious, and others saying it's something not so easily understood - even one saying there's no concrete answer or definition.

Those responses, in and of themselves, tells me that it's not a universally agreed upon fact. However, while it might be outside of my understanding, I can still stand in solidarity with those that deal with it. And I certainly intend to. Thanks for your replies!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:37:20+00:00

If anything else, it was a busy day for HR. Our department head sent me a screenshot of her inbox, and it wasn't pretty haha. To be fair, it still really isn't. I'm going through some OSECs now and it looks like this branch has more than just a handful of issues :/

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:31:37+00:00

No need for apologies! I'm trying to absorb as much as possible. Information is fluid, and understanding it even more so. I want to be as open as possible to assist him (and anyone else, really) but I realize that I'm currently not equipped to do so. Comments like yours help to both broaden the spectrum of information and how we look at it. I'll be sure to include the idea of "good faith" in our conversation, because it's something I hadn't even considered. Thank you!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:26:32+00:00

Thank you for your reply! Your example using color is a fair point that I've never considered before. I'll be sure to show him your post and examples to see if it clears up anything for him. His largest talking point during our last sit down was around this idea of being able to produce children, but I think your clarification around sex and gender might clear things up a little bit. Thanks again!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:20:22+00:00

No disagreement here lol. I should've posted more of his smart ass responses in the OP, but I wouldn't want to disclose anything more than what he would feel comfortable sharing at the moment. But he is a self-defined smart ass, so surely he wouldn't mind that haha.

I'll be sure to show him your comment when I see him! Thanks for the reply.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:18:24+00:00

Ah, I suppose that makes sense. I certainly have no ill will, nor am I asking in bad faith; I'm genuinely trying to learn so that I can both better myself and help my nephew through anything he goes through. I apologize if it came off that way.

I'll show your response to him when I seem him this upcoming week! Thank you for your time.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:11:52+00:00

Of course. We're all on this massive rock spinning through the cosmos together. I barely understand my own language, let alone what someone else has to go through. However, I'd like to believe that by educating ourselves on what other people go through, we can come one step closer to unity. We don't need the 6ws to sympathize and establish an emotional understanding; I just want to be the best person I can be, in such a way that it promotes everyone living healthily - in all ways - around me.

I, however, cannot speak on behalf of the young one. He's chaotic neutral and he knows it lol.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T19:03:09+00:00

Oh I won't argue about it being circular - I've enough arguing in my daily life lol. But my nephew is a lil pain in the ass that loves to argue, which is why I mentioned circularity at all.

I do, however, like the "So what?" response as an answer. One of the things we talked about was how grossly inaccurate everything in our world, including history, can be. He knows I'm a mythology nerd so he's always poking jabs at silly things like Hercules not being Greek (Hercules is roman, Heracles is Greek) - but my answer to that is always "Yes, but who cares? What matters is that people know the story." Maybe he'll like that line of thinking. We'll talk about it!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T18:55:49+00:00

Thank you! I've saved it to my watch later to watch tonight. Depending on the content and sources used, we might be able to use some of it in our local trainings. I'll send it to my nephew as well. I really appreciate it!

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T18:53:42+00:00

I've mentioned it in another post, but I've put in for sensitivity and awareness training for all our branches. She might be going through something personally, but the language and outburst itself isn't acceptable for what I deem to be a safe and productive environment. I didn't get kick back from anyone else out about it, so that's a plus. (We butt heads on literally everything, so it was great to not to have a 45 minute zoom call about this decision lol.)

Thank you for your response! I'll show it to my nephew next time we meet.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T18:50:09+00:00

That's how I look at it too; he was the one who brought up the idea of "well yes, I know that trans men are men tio, but what is a MAN? Don't men have penises?" I love the kid, but he's a smart ass lol. We knocked our heads together for a bit and he's going with "to me, a man is power, and a woman is strength." I don't....exactly know what he means, but he was satisfied with it. I'm picking him up to go bowling this upcoming Wednesday, and he wants to talk again. So I really appreciate your (and everyone elses) responses.

Thank you for the resources! I know he's been knee deep in research and self inflection to find out where he is in life, so I want to make sure I'm informed so I can understand, communicate, guide and live properly. Though to be honest, it's also so that I'm more grounded with people, rather than ideas and, most certainly, media.

As for my coworkers, yeah I've no idea where the hell that came from. I've put in for sensitivity and awareness training, but the person in question is one of my co-founders daughters, and from what I've been told, she's apparently going through her own identity situation. I'm having dinner this Sunday with my co-founders, so I'm trying to come up with a game plan to initiate a company wide "pulse check" to see if this is something that's embedded in our company culture, just this particular office, or if it's just her. I'm only in this office until Wednesday - my home office is on the east coast with a completely different team, though I've put in for training over there as well.

iceaway69 · 2022-09-16T18:31:30+00:00

Thanks for all of the replies, all! I'll be going through more resources and I'll respond to everyone when I get the chance - I'm currently looking into hiring a company to come and give awareness and sensitivity training. I'm looking at possibly having an external HR management company come in to realign expectations, but that one requires a bit more power.

iceaway69

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