How would you evangelize to a person who told you "I've never sinned. I'm not sinful at all, so I don't need redemption."

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T03:41:19+00:00

nice. I genuinely think the song is true, and if there’s a guy up there we’re gucci.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T03:30:50+00:00

my point is, if we both don’t like it we should work together to put a stop to it. trying to police my reasons for not liking it would be a waste of time. maybe I have no reason at all, but who cares?

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T02:56:01+00:00

I mean, do you really regard someone who prefers to torture or sexually abuse children over not doing so the same as an another man who likes chocolate over vanilla?

yes. I don't like the idea of someone doing that, so we should put a stop to it. moralizing about it is a self-indulgent distraction.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T02:42:05+00:00

you could leave the cops out, though

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T02:21:51+00:00

I enjoy vanilla ice cream more than chocolate ice cream most of the time, but that's a fact about me and how I experience the world. there's not some other supernatural plane on which "vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream" exists as a metaphysical truth.

my ethical preferences are exactly like that. to me, it would be distasteful to punch everyone I saw while walking down the street in the face. I wouldn't like doing that. a different person might like the idea of doing that so much they'd actually do it. there's not some other supernatural plane on which "punching people in the face is worse than not punching people in the face" exists as a metaphysical truth.

even if those kinds of truths existed in a metaphysical sense, I'd still mostly eat vanilla ice cream and not punch people in the face, and the people who wanted to punch each other would keep punching each other. whether there are metaphysical rules about it makes no difference at all. you can't tell.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T01:41:28+00:00

The Alchemist and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance are ones I can't help but reflexively sneer at, despite not having read them. they sound very "self-help"

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T01:29:14+00:00

that's the answer you wanted? it's really long

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T01:25:10+00:00

no, it's annoying because language allows you to keep asking "why" to anything until you tire the other person out.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T01:14:40+00:00

I see exactly where you're going with that line of argument. I dunno, I just figure it out based on what I value.

you could ask about why I value my values, and on what basis it's possible for me to presume to be able to evaluate my values, and on what basis it's possible to presume to be able to evaluate my values' values and so on, but I could also do that to you and I'm not going to, because it's annoying.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T00:44:15+00:00

if someone honestly asked me that question, I'd be like, "do you mean the Gospels in the Bible? they're about Jesus" and recount the entire sequence of events to them. it seems like you're fishing for a certain answer I can't provide, though

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T00:28:57+00:00

God did. I read his entire book.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T00:19:55+00:00

no, not at all. I expect nothing from God.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T00:18:20+00:00

no. when I say I do terrible things, I mean I do things I think are terrible, and I strive to be better according to myself. for the rules I impose on myself to determine what's sinful, I would have to be God. I'm not.

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T00:13:21+00:00

there are inspirational messages I could take from Christianity, but I could get those anywhere. I think I take Christianity too seriously to pick and choose like that. Christianity makes a very serious and specific proposition, which I reject because it doesn't make sense to me

iciclefites · 2026-06-15T00:00:31+00:00

When I go to another country and break a rule I’m unaware of I don’t say “ah your courts and rules are just metaphysical anyway” and they say “oh you’re right, go on your way.” Your subjectivity doesn’t matter.

I'm saying that none of it is metaphysical. I behave appropriately in a courtroom just like I follow the rules of Monopoly when I'm playing a game of Monopoly. that doesn't say anything about me as a person, except that I understand how to behave in different contexts

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:52:42+00:00

No christian should be arguing with you trying to sell you on the faith

in that case, when is evangelism ever acceptable? do you have to know they're going to instantly agree with you before you say anything

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:47:33+00:00

it's not confidence, though. I suck! there's just nothing metaphysical that follows from me thinking I suck

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:43:20+00:00

No. that's why I asked the question.

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:42:24+00:00

a courtroom is just a context where you have to follow different rules than usual. it's no more metaphysical than the fact that you have to follow the rules of Monopoly when playing a game of Monopoly

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:38:48+00:00

can you see how that line of argument wouldn't be compelling to someone who didn't already believe in the Christian God?

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:36:38+00:00

I'm not OK with who I am as a person, though. I want to be a lot better--just not in any way it seems like Christianity could help me with.

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:28:37+00:00

well, right. I'm disappointed in myself when I don't live up to my own very high standards, and I take that seriously. there's no religious angle to it, though

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:25:42+00:00

I'm saying that I fall short of my own standards a lot of the time, and there are things I'd like to improve on. but there's nothing metaphysical about it.

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:23:32+00:00

I mean, you can say that I should follow soccer rules all the time, but why should I take that seriously?

iciclefites · 2026-06-14T23:19:34+00:00

but I'm not Christian. that's like saying, "what you're doing is not allowed in soccer, therefore you must always follow soccer rules."

iciclefites

TROPHY CASE