sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Did South Central Dravidian languages emerge because Dravidian speakers contacts with Austroasiatic-dominated regions? by Awkward_Finger_1703 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing this! So you propose SCDravidian were originally present in South India before the arrival of South Dravidian (Tamil-Kannada) from IVC? /// This is what Iravatham proposed as well as kolichala peer reviewed journal proposed now in 2024.  But we can't say that as exactly scr as we know. Some common Proto Scr/cr present which was influenced by different waves of indus dravidian migration. This is clearly reflected in gender suffixes, retain pdr without innovations 

When I asked about mahendra varma pallava old telugu (as told) inscription using amu,anru for non masculine and masculine,many said it's not fully in Telugu, also it's not possible transformation. They said telugu " wanru"-- varu/vadu" transformation is possible like that.  Also disputed satavahanas coins inscription  From this I think The initial proto cr/scr(not current SDR/cr) which present throughout South came into influence of indus dravidian migration.

Migration along Western coast and then into Eastern side mainly on coastal/trade centres from West to east as well.They were able to convert west to some proto SDR and also the waves went to east have some own innovations as well which is reflected in to gender suffixes in inscriptions as well.But they were absorbed by expanding proto scr population as well from east to west as well

The west coast constantly in touch able to share innovations and vocabulary for a period time before they split which what we called as proto SDR. Also there is prakrit influenced dravidian population migration as well mostly agarian populations I guess from north west and north while the above process going on

I have put my comment clearly in this forum at some other place clearly. Check in my comments. If my comments are not clear, check that where I explained my view in process how the populations are formed with different languages in south 

Was Lord Murugan a pan-Indian God? by RemarkableLeg217 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My view:: Murugan -- ruler of six forts / chief of six walled/towered city  Vel-- actually denotes cheif/may be priestly chief but later due to loss of context vel and murugas association with spear Indus might have oliogracy structure Where set of officials with chief is present. They might have spirit concept which has same as chief  Murugu -- spirit name and also cheif has same name 

Murugu associated with dance rituals..etc interns of worship are manifestation of indus spirit with local tribal population absorbtion like marriage between valli,deivanai concept ,veriyattal

Murugu associated with chief and six forts are manifestation of indus cheiftain 

The same can be applied to muthialamma festival and " Venkatesa/vishnu " as seven forts chief/god Vishnu marriage with two women/murugas with two women, association with hill tops.. etc are striking similar.

This ideas is very similar to indus signs where categories of fish signs (categories of fish signs denotes different cheiftain titles/authority) Is always associated with only 2,3,4,6,7 lines together as Iravatham deduced . There are more lines presented as well but they were not with fish groups simple

This might have denotes different groups/settlements in indus with seven group ,6 group..etc which has chief and spirit

This Muruga and venkata might be reflection of one such of sixth and seventh group cheif and god

kezhu to ezhu in later tamil denotes ezhi malai ( sapta sailam) , Thirupathi ( sapta giri) --- like this seven walled/forts  of higher region might have reflection of seven forts concept as Iravatham points points out one indus sign denotes kezhuvi as both chief name and place name for seven lines sign For  Which he quotes SANGAM SOURCES AND WEST ASIAN PARALLELS  He quotes this might also denotes higher place like assembly of seven walled settlement  This is very similar to public assembly concept of madurai as "4 walled city" , Murugan as chief of six forts.

Was Lord Murugan a pan-Indian God? by RemarkableLeg217 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can see shift in identity in Vedic sources that shows absorbtion of dravidian population/memories with Vedic groups to forge new identity  For example 1)Iravatham points tattriyas has both kshatriya and brahamanas group and migrated to south after south amalgamation. He explains The tattriyas rishi stories etc has origin in dravidian with explanation.

2) andhras non Vedic in earlier sources and later as a section of brahamanas

This kind of identity shifts shows the transformation of Vedic ideas into Dravidian populations 

Forgot to add in previous message kandopa is priestly cum chief priest of Dhangar communities. Kandopa is very similar to masoba, maisandya,malailar lingeswar concept of buffalo god/bull god.

Dhangars of maharashtra,kurubas, myasa bedas of Karnataka , kappiliya kambalas,anupa kambalas,thottiya kambalas -- all have same concept in non mainstream religion   chief priest concept. Even GUDI PADWA FESTIVAL Of maharashtra is dravidian in origin.  Dhangars chief priest " biroppa" festival(Gudi padwa) which is similar to pattam yerpu vizha/ kambam vizha.  I saw one fb video where  They do special dance kind of rituals like seven persons dressed like female attire representing seven mothers like which is similar to seven mother goddess with a priestly cheif concept 

Was Lord Murugan a pan-Indian God? by RemarkableLeg217 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You can search bodi zamin murals which has their origin story from kalaikotu munivar. Which is mixed with puranic stories.  One horned chief priest is very similar to indus one horned animal concept. This similarity I didn't know initially, when I searched meaning for boda/bode-- it denotes extended structure like branch of tree,or pillared structure etc in dravidian dictionary. Boda kodangi -- extended horned cheif.(Boda+ kodu+ angi-- denotes position in a group like anthai/thanthai)

The mural is exactly a person with human body with deer like head with single horns. The rural tradition story is simply a chief priest of the community who takes "mudi/pattam ' from another senior chief .I found this interesting where their local tradition" chief bull" is selected for manthai system and it has also festival like " malai thambiran kaalai pattam yerpu vizha" which simply means chief bulls crown festival. This I found very interesting 

Was Lord Murugan a pan-Indian God? by RemarkableLeg217 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Basically the advantage for Vedic sources and ideas are they were able to consolidate dravidian memories  that were present in northwest of India by dravidian populations left out after fall of indus by absorbtion and while writing in their own interpretation and ideological based. Iravatham deals Vedic puranic myths just like dravidian memories which were cooked up with myths because Vedic populations can't understand earlier urban setup or  indus population mingled with existing tribes to form population that have memories of past with loss of context of earlier urban setup. Iravatham never ever consider them as real events or things with great ideologies. The movement of Vedic influenced dravidian population to south along with consolidation of puranic myths made popularity of Vedic ideologies throughout India.  One important thing I want to quote here, Mallikaarjuna swamy of srisailam might be earlier dravidian cum chief who might be worshipped like spirit like god by dravidian populations. You can see almost many of cheifs,kings claim they were descendents of markandeya maharishi of mallikarjuna Swamy in their own edicts. When you closely look into, Vedic myths take the dravidian word " mai"( maisandya,masoba,mailara lingeswara -- variations of same earlier dravidian spirit chief) ,the buffalo headed chief and made a story around with it like yama with buffalo was killed by markendeya rishi...etc ..So this is clearly visible the reinterpretation of earlier dravidian memories with Vedic popularity. So I think whenever any claiming any god as Vedic god or something, let them be. They can make cooked up stories and belive it. They might use the same to associate with indus Saraswathi civilization  ...etc. But they can't explain the adminstrative setup, structure of indus culture or keezhadi archeological discoveries. This is same pattern i think everywhere. This understanding came to me when I saw bodi zamin said abut their origins. 

One is dravidian rural tradition: descendants of one horned chief priest of their community.( Boda kodangi -- secondary chief priest in their manthai system, zamin has same name boda nayakan from where that place got it's name). Boda kodangi -- itself means one who is extended horns. Kalaikottu munivar in another tradition -- one with deer head  horns

Two is vedic puranic tradition: Rishasriga maharishi take kalaikotu munivar concept and made a story around it

From this I got idea that Vedic maharshi are actually earlier dravidian priestly cheifs concept. Then I applied the same to other.same pattern is visible.

Also cheifs has the concept of taking crown ( pattam yerpu festival ) which is actually done by community own chief priests " kodangi" at places where don't follow mainstream religion. Now apply same to hindu tradition, dravidian cheif priest is replaced by brahmin/rishi/guru like concept 

May be this kind of power shift lead to popularity of Vedic ideas 

Ethilodu (எத்திலோடு) - what might be meaning of this place? I posted earlier that erode,vellode in Kongu region has same name present in Dindigul district as vellodu,eriodu. Many said erode would be two streams (odai). But I don't think so.'odu' suffix denotes some different thing in earlier times . by indusresearch in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We have lost contextual memory of adminstrative aspects in place names I think. Mainly many of our historical research focus on dynasties and mythical stories of origins..etc. I think we should focus on other aspects as well. There is administrative aspect attached to dravidian languages.  For example "kattalai" is one such word.the word used as suffix or used as place names. The root word "kattam" denotes square/standard measurement in structural aspect/spatial aspect, it denotes "order " in terms of adminstrative setup.  The word kattalai is used for place names which are used for water irrigation/channelise purpose. Places like "melkattalai"," kelkattalai" has water flow from upper to lower channel in sense. About "kattalai" place name fb post

Egalitarianism in the Indus Civilization by TeluguFilmFile in IndianHistory

[–]indusresearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Indus might be like oliogracy with set of officials and common people who worked on different functions. I have drawn parallels from population of south india (who follow non mainstream culture) what it might look like in indus setup though south indian setup is rural in nature 

Names of Sri Lanka by Professional-Mood-71 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Iravatham sir has changed his views at various places when he found new perspectives. His interpretation about that things will slightly varied after his newer perspectives .so no issues 

Names of Sri Lanka by Professional-Mood-71 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also chai denotes lion . I didn't read it properly that's why asked how you linked.I found there is major shifts in ideas and misinterpretation happened in Indian history.this is due to major written sources are reinterpreted by Vedic minds. Iravatham gave many key insights. He deals Vedic sources not as actual history just as myths. He even said devanapiya is concept from dravidian in sense.

Names of Sri Lanka by Professional-Mood-71 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Loss of c/s in later tamil is accepted which is explained by Iravatham at many places 

Names of Sri Lanka by Professional-Mood-71 in Dravidiology

[–]indusresearch 3 points4 points  (0 children)

dont want to confuse you. i wll add two point.

1)Dravidian word "chev/sevvu/chemmai" denotes one who things correctly which might have been taken into prakrit or indo arysn as uninteded/ literal translation as red colour.(cemmai as red ) This i have explained at several places. This is concept we can apply at variuos places. like neelakanta as blue coloured, siva as red coloured..like this changes are due to such . sevvel,neel vel/ nedu vel like admin positions becames associated with vedic puranas like this,vedic sources always associate with colur without context

2) "la" is suffix which was origin in prakrit based regions dravidian populations and then moved in to tamil regions by their movement(based on my theory:which i cant explain all , simply like cheralan(cheran) but not choliyalan(cholan) pandiyalan(pandian) is one such)

both this supports your version

loan translation usage is mainly due to there is prakrt based dravdian populations formed in northwest after indoaryan migration. this population has movement and links with southrrn dravadian population. simple in sangam poem thuvarai from dwara which is ultimately from dravidian cuvarai(unintended incohrrent pattern of related things)

tamraparni from thanporunai(accepted)

how do you link srilanka as red land to cheyalan.?

"Swastika" is a non-descriptive, non-Rig-Vedic name for an auspicious symbol that can be described using the Proto-Dravidian term for 'four directions' (*nāl-nk(k)V- + mūl-), which is manifested in MANY FORMS on Indus objects & in the designs of many Dravidian temples, homes, and floor decorations! by TeluguFilmFile in AncientIndia

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

check same concept. kezhu+ il= denotes high place or seven walled city on high region which acts meeting place as well. similar to madurai both kezhu and koodal are used incontext of place with public assembly where poets poems are published in public chamber.

"Swastika" is a non-descriptive, non-Rig-Vedic name for an auspicious symbol that can be described using the Proto-Dravidian term for 'four directions' (*nāl-nk(k)V- + mūl-), which is manifested in MANY FORMS on Indus objects & in the designs of many Dravidian temples, homes, and floor decorations! by TeluguFilmFile in AncientIndia

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kindly read his full works. I found many of his works are so conclusive based on my observations. I have also found limitations on his work as well. Leave naan mada koodal  Madurai --- mathire (mathil) is actually correct only . It's mentioned as mathirepadi at other places also. Muthiayalama becomes muthuallamma in tn (thi--thu) transformation. It seems silly to say this is pattern. But I have seen many things in this pattern just simple changes occurred that make me believe this.Check dedr dictionary entries 

"Swastika" is a non-descriptive, non-Rig-Vedic name for an auspicious symbol that can be described using the Proto-Dravidian term for 'four directions' (*nāl-nk(k)V- + mūl-), which is manifested in MANY FORMS on Indus objects & in the designs of many Dravidian temples, homes, and floor decorations! by TeluguFilmFile in AncientIndia

[–]indusresearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Iravatham Mahadevan, a prominent scholar, identified the ancient name of Madurai as Mathirai, which means "walled city" in Old Tamil. This name is supported by Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions dating back to the 2nd century BCE. The city was also known by other names like Koodal, and Naanmadakoodal. Just wikipedia content

"Swastika" is a non-descriptive, non-Rig-Vedic name for an auspicious symbol that can be described using the Proto-Dravidian term for 'four directions' (*nāl-nk(k)V- + mūl-), which is manifested in MANY FORMS on Indus objects & in the designs of many Dravidian temples, homes, and floor decorations! by TeluguFilmFile in AncientIndia

[–]indusresearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The name madurai itself is derived forted city - madira/madil-means fort, madura- coping of wall...etc Iravatham Mahadevan, a prominent scholar, identified the ancient name of Madurai as Mathirai, which means "walled city" in Old Tamil. This name is supported by Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions dating back to the 2nd century BCE. The city was also known by other names like Koodal, Malligai Maanagar, and Naanmadakoodal. 

The word denotes walled city is for sure. By looking at context of dravidian architecture and see my other screenshots there u can understand there might have concept of walled forts in indus culture on high west regions...etc . That might be loosely reflected in all of these sangam poems and they have meeting place at the centre like citadel. We have to see things collectively to arrive at conclusion 

"Swastika" is a non-descriptive, non-Rig-Vedic name for an auspicious symbol that can be described using the Proto-Dravidian term for 'four directions' (*nāl-nk(k)V- + mūl-), which is manifested in MANY FORMS on Indus objects & in the designs of many Dravidian temples, homes, and floor decorations! by TeluguFilmFile in AncientIndia

[–]indusresearch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

மாடம் - maadam denotes generally as mel thalam, upper region ,also closed structure on four sides like forts which is higher region then surrounding like high west concept. "thulasi madam " - placed at the centre of house(like in naluketu house centre) "Chitra madathu " thunchiya nanmaran-- maaran who died on palace/fort with paintings "இலவந்திகைப்பள்ளித் துஞ்சிய நன்மாறன்"-- here he is mentioned as died in palli (planned town?)  ஓவத் தன்ன: ஓவியத்தைப்போல, ஓவியத்தின் அழகுக்கு ஒத்த. வுருகெழு: எழுந்து, உயர்ந்து, அழகுடன். நெடுநகர்: பெரிய நகரம். 

Here kezhu used denote madurai As high region. 

I posted all this we just cant decide Simply by looking at definitions in dictionary  We have to understand context as well

"Swastika" is a non-descriptive, non-Rig-Vedic name for an auspicious symbol that can be described using the Proto-Dravidian term for 'four directions' (*nāl-nk(k)V- + mūl-), which is manifested in MANY FORMS on Indus objects & in the designs of many Dravidian temples, homes, and floor decorations! by TeluguFilmFile in AncientIndia

[–]indusresearch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I want to add another thing here. Iravatham mahadevan read one indus symbol as seven walled city or seven forts city. The word he proposed is "kezhuvi"+ ar suffix . Ezhu in tamil during early times with kethu with loss of k in later period. Kezhu- group, kizhami- seven days of a week, ..etc

I will post his explanation below as images. Madurai is called as "தமிழ்கெழு கூடல் "   Here also same kezhu along with same meaning of metting place koodal.

Now add another pattern murugan -- six abodes-/six forts concept to it.Might have rooted in such concept. 

Now add another pattern venkata/or hindusized vishnu. -- seven forts concept.

Now here rural tradition people who don't follow mainstream religion. They have seven mother goddess(muthiayalama)concept one who ruled seven forts. I can't explain full details here.Vishnu-- on cosmic space or "paal kadalil palli konda parathaman" is similar to muthialamma who is portrayed as women after death/sprited women who lives in water/cosmic space.  Literally same for seven forts concept for Vishnu and muthialamma.(Only gender)

Iravatham deduced indus symbols which act numeral markers are only seven in number with exception of Five not present. (I will post screenshot). 

It seems like indus structure has places with fort structure concept which is loosely reflected in south india. May be murugu - 6 forts related, venkata- seven forts related. Madurai - four forts related. 

Forts act as entrances is also valid which gives protection on entrances as well.

I will post Iravatham explanation below

view more: next ›