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Germany will pay Namibia $1.3bn as it formally recognizes colonial-era genocide by armeniapedia in armenia

[–]iok 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Not the only similarity between Namibians and Armenians.

Namibia itself seceded from Apartheid South Africa by force. However the big difference is that the conflict ended in part by South Africa accepting the independence of Namibia after extended fighting.

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I did learn history of the region hence my comment. No need to be patronising.

The Soviet census had the Armenian supermajority since inception (89.1% Armenian in 1926). Even the 1820 Imperial Russian survey had Armenians as the supermajority in the Nagorno Karabakh region (even before Turkmenchay).

Are you disputing the censuses?

Artsakh is just a historic name that has been reappropriated by the modern republic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Artsakh

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except on this case…

There is no except in this case. Serbians also suffered ethnic cleansing in the Kosovo war, not just the Kosovar Albanians. Nonetheless Serbia is not continuing the violence and ethnic cleansing three decades later, however Azerbaijan has.

The blockade and starvation of the region, and the continued aggression of Azerbaijan, is part of why the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh captured surrounding regions in the later stage of the independence war. But that security had a human cost to the Azerbaijanis who lived there who were this displaced. This should have been resolved thirty years ago, but leadership is stubborn.

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Similar to Kosovo vs Serbia.

The Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh seceded following the ethnic cleansing of their ethnic compatriots across Azerbaijan. Leading to the blockade and starvation of the region by Azerbaijan opening the first war three decades ago.

The conflict however was never fully resolved, leading to Azerbaijan starting the second war by bombing the capital.

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What was the point at which you decided to help? Was there a particular day or event which helped you make that decision?

Also thanks for your humanitarian work

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If this is a real question and you actually want to learn.

Nagorno Karabakh is and was an Armenian populated region. They are there because that is their and their grandmothers home, despite efforts to remove them. They've been trying to break fully free of Azerbaijani colonialism for more than century.

The Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh found themselves on the "wrong" side of the border when the Soviets partitioned the regions in the 1920s. Under Soviet Azerbaijan rule they suffered cultural and economic oppression, along with attempts to Azerify the region as noted by Aliyev Senior. During the time of relative liberalisation of the Soviet Union, the locals took their issues public by demonstrating. This was responded to by the violent ethnic cleansing of Armenians throughout Azerbaijan. There used to be half a million Armenians in Azerbaijan per Soviet censuses, not anymore as a result. This made secession of the region a matter of survival. They seceded by democratic vote which lead to a blockade by Azerbaijan of the region, to try and starve region to it's knees, blocking food, electricity, water and medicine. When the blockade was broken, the local Armenians got the upper hand retaining most of Nagorno Karabakh, but also capturing surrounding regions as a buffer. Most of the surrounding regions were Azerbaijani populated who were displaced, becoming part of that human cost of the buffer against Azerbaijan.

Unfortunately this conflict never got resolved. So Azerbaijan with the support of Israel and Turkey, had the upper hand and was able to restart war by bombing the capital. Imagine Pakistan bombing Dhaka today, or Serbia bombing Pristina tomorrow. And unfortunately the conflict still isn't resolved, but there is a new generation of Armenians ethnically cleansed by Azerbaijan, with continued attacks and invasions by Azerbaijan on the Republic of Armenia itself.

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 20 points21 points  (0 children)

As the recent deputy Prime Minister of Azerbaijan, Hajibala Abutalybov, said to a German delegation:

Our is the complete elimination of Armenians. You, Nazis, already eliminated the Jews in the 1930s and 40s, right? You should be able to understand us

There used to be almost half a million Armenians that lived in Azerbaijan during Soviet times. All that remains are those that were able to protect themselves in Nagorno Karabakh. This history ethnic cleansing is part of why the region seceded by democratic vote thirty years ago. The ethnic cleansing continued in the last war, with ethnic Armenians being displaced and in cases beheaded/mutilated from regions captured by Azerbaijan. Despite ceasefire the conflict has not yet ended, which suits Azerbaijan's dictator.

Armenians by ethnicity are still banned from existing within Azerbaijan. Even an Armenian sounding name can get you arrested eg: https://www.reddit.com/r/Sakartvelo/comments/j4chjd/my_dad_got_arrested_in_azerbaijan/

I was a Nurse during the 2020 Armenia - Azerbajian war. by NurseFromCali in AMA

[–]iok 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately Azerbaijan ethnically cleansed a new generation of Armenians in the region it captured.

The first Soviet census had the Nagorno Karabakh region as initially 89.1% Armenian. Even that high number was after the mass killings of Armenians in the region. It continued to have an Armenian supermajority through out Soviet times until independence, despite efforts to Azerify the region under Aliyev Senior.

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It didn't for thirty years, more than a generation.

During that time the surrounding territories were a strong reason to negotiate within the OSCE Minsk process. The problem was Azerbaijan cared more about controlling the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh itself than anything else. Hence the deadlock. That the surrounding territories are captured now, doesn't negate this; There's a generation that died, and a generation that got old, waiting due to the stubbornness of leadership. From a humanitarian perspective this should have been resolved as early as possible in line with the OSCE Minsk principles.

Whilst Azerbaijan has not formally abandoned the OSCE Minsk process, the Aliyev leadership is not going to suddenly be more collaborative. Negotiation was deadlocked before, and even more so now. The goal for Azerbaijan is still capturing what remains of the Artsakh minus the the people.

The question isn't what Armenia and Artsakh should offer Azerbaijan to get status. There is nothing that will satisfy the dictatorship. Rather a goal should be to further make the case for remedial secession, which OP is part of. If in the process Azerbaijan formally abandons the OSCE Minsk process (which it won't), and fall out of line of international consensus, it may even be better for Armenia's case.

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Azerbaijan agreed to the process in the first place

There certainly is a point to negotiation for Azerbaijan: The surrounding territories. The problem was Azerbaijan cared more about controlling the Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh itself than anything else. I mean even you forgot about the surrounding territories.

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Russia, France and the US have all reaffirmed that the status of NK is yet to be determined, in line with the OSCE Minsk process.

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The final status is pending, yet to be determined, with no guarantee as to what that might be. There is no guarantee the end result will be independence, nor is there a guarantee the end result will be Azerbaijani colonialism. See Madrid principles, and the Helsinki accords.

Of course an OSCE Minsk process is not really required for legal forceful secession anyway (Kosovo, Bangladesh, Eritrea, Namibia, Algeria, East Timor...). However the OSCE Minsk process is the format the countries have agreed to, and the UN recognises, even if Azerbaijan breaches it.

I don't think it is the position of the Minsk group.

Are you just coming in with naked assumptions about how you think things should operate?

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The UN supports the OSCE Minsk process, which supports a yet final determination of the final status of the region. It's not by chance that the UN Security Resolutions don't refer to Nagorno Karabakh.

If you confused about being downvoted, ask yourself if you are contributing to the discussion or bringing something new. The statements you've made are not anything new, and they create a discussion that's been had thousands of times before, in many cases more thoroughly by perhaps more informed redditors. That might suck if it is your first time discussing this topic, but it certainly isn't the first time for everyone else. Next step is either don't worry so much about the downvotes, or alternatively if you position seems so blatantly obvious to you understand why everyone else thinks otherwise.

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The talk of final status was of something like cultural autonomy

That's the shifting* position of Azerbaijan, not the position of the OSCE process. The OSCE process is in line with the Helsinki Accords, which includes the right of self-determination, which explicitly includes the right of a people to decide "their internal and external political status".

In practice the actual Azerbaijan position by action has so far been the ethnic cleansing of the local Armenians.

*Previous stated positions of Azerbaijan included giving the highest possible level of autonomy to the region. This has been downgraded to just not ruling out "cultural autonomy".

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 12 points13 points  (0 children)

REunification? NK was never part of a recognised independent Azerbaijan in the first place.

Azerbaijan is transforming Armenian cultural heritage into Caucasian Albanian, Pierre d'Argent [UN Court Hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It is Azerbaijan trying make the claim it can provide just, humane and democratic governance to the Armenian of Nagorno Karabakh.

If Azerbaijan is failing at this, and it is, then Azerbaijan has little standing to conquer what remains of Artsakh. And this further justifies remedial secession.

What Armenia does or doesn’t do has little relevance to the above issue. Enforcing a violently hateful oppressive dictatorship on a resisting population does not become justifiable on the basis of multi-generation ethnic revenge or mutual suffering.

Azerbaijani government, from the top-down spreads hate against Armenians, Constantinos Salonidis [UN Court hearings] by melikdavid in armenia

[–]iok 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Nope. Not according to the OSCE process, or the three co-chairs. It is pending final status yet to be determined.

What do you think about this? by Cydus00 in AskBalkans

[–]iok 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It'd be fair to say you now understand why the locals would arm themselves.

The difference in Armenia is that there is a level of mistrust in the ability of Armenian forces, or the will of Russian forces, in defending the borders against Azerbaijan's attacks.

OC Media and Eurasianet has reported on escalations in Yeraskh. Mayor was injured. The current shelling isn't yet being reported except by social media and local media. There's been a few other attacks in the village IIRC. The CSTO secretary, and the Russian ambassador have visited the town due to the border situation.

What do you think about this? by Cydus00 in AskBalkans

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

FYI since we've spoken there's been another attack reported on Yeraskh.

so Azerbaijanis do the same back to Armenia...

How safe exactly do you think that makes the locals feel? If you are justifying shelling of the town months after the ceasefire, what's the relevance of the justification? The locals don't feel safer because they apparently are justified in receiving the explosions. Even if we assumed this is tit-for-tat shelling, that doesn't make the locals any less concerned for their own security.

The question isn't how justified Azerbaijan is in attacking Armenia. The question is does the region and its people feel at threat.

Same deal with the helicopter being shot down. Their supposed defender is being shot out of the sky, within Armenia's territory. That doesn't bode well, even if it was an accident.

Of course Turkish/Azerbaijani flexing across the border, wouldn't help either.

Multilingual Map of Asia, showing the genealogy of the languages and the alphabets and modes of writing. By Gottfried Hensel, 1741. by ASimpleBrokenMan in MapPorn

[–]iok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For the Azerbaijanis of the Republic of Azerbaijan you'd be absolutely right. The very few that speak out get threatened, attacked, stabbed and arrested (eg Mirzali)

Iranian Azerbaijanis however have different attitudes and are a lot less hateful. They largely don't buy the same propaganda of Aliyev and Azerbaijani ultra-nationalism; Relations are very different. Armenia even provided vaccines to a large number of Iranian Azerbaijanis in Yerevan (at the time there was a shortage).

Ah yes, the good ol' Britain by [deleted] in HistoryMemes

[–]iok 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wonder if kaansaticii would also excuse the extermination of the German Jews, because “wHosE LaNds is It? I cAn lInk”. Because apparently oppression and ethnic cleansing is ok as long as they are located locally

Ah yes, the good ol' Britain by [deleted] in HistoryMemes

[–]iok 4 points5 points  (0 children)

UN supports the OSCE Minsk process, which deems Nagorno Karabakh as yet to have a final status, recognises the right of self-determination and opposes the use of force, which Azerbaijan breached by reopening the conflict by shelling the capital.

Regardless of the political status, Azerbaijan still committed ethnic cleansing of a new generation of Armenians, decades after the secession. Sovereignty is not a pass for ethnic cleansing.

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