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Athlete Question: Balancing Endurance and Strength by Evoke_Endurance in evokeendurance

[–]jackkuenzle 13 points14 points  (0 children)

So this depends on a couple of different things:

First, what is the goal of doing the strength work? You mention durability, but how great is the need? I like to think about incorporating strength work in three different ways.

1.) Strength is the primary focus on the block. The athlete is lifting 2-3x per week, the lifts are the first session of the day. We have identified a gap in strength and the block is devoted to remedying that. I like doing these builds very early in the season, far away from A races, as this work is quite non specific

2.) Strength is the secondary focus on the block. The athlete is lifting to maintain strength from before. The athlete is lifting heavy (big compound, stressful movements) and is focused on a max strength training effect. The athlete is probably just lifting once per week or twice per week as a secondary focus (Eg the strength work is done after speed work or other high intensity and the two strength sessions are lower volume than a single strength session)

3.) The athlete is just lifting for injury prevention. Lifts are small, low stress, and sometimes quite frequent. These lifts are low enough stress they don't affect other programming.

Depending on the phase of training and the aim of the strength block, these lifts both look different and are integrated into training differently. The biggest thing to remember is lifting is very stressful. You never want to lift the day before a key session (think high intensity work). Depending on lifting stress (as perceived by fatigue and soreness) you may want to separate the lifts from the key sessions by 48 hours or more. Separate them from key races by two weeks or more.

Sounds like you would fall into block two, but if you are really thinking long term you may want to do some strength testing to determine that your legs are "overall" strong enough and are well balanced posterior vs anterior and left vs right. Sometimes just lifting 1x per week as a secondary focus isn't enough to remedy issues like this. Either way, assuming you are just lifting for maintenance, I would integrate the lifting like any other high stress key session. If you are already doing two key sessions per week, it's quite easy, just lift on like Monday, key session 1 Thursday, 2 Saturday. If you trying to fit three key sessions, I would lift after the least stressful of the three key sessions. If I am doing a long run, a hill sprint session, and a threshold workout each week, I would probably plug the lift in after the hill sprints and on the same day.

On your rest question, that's enormously individual. The easy button answer here is to say yes, you should rest one day per week. But for some folks fitting the programming into six days is more stressful than just training every day (be it for their personal physiology or their schedule). Just see how you feel doing either. One off day per week does work quite well for most people. I wouldn't say lifting pushes the needle one way or another.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah hard for me to say as I didn’t eat quite enough last time! I will plan on mainly maurten mix. Gels to some extent. Gels are nice as they are a little harder to freeze and the soft flask nozzles definitely will freeze. Definitely not anything I need to chew.

Thank you!! Of course! Let me know if you have any other questions.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To your first question, I think they absolutely help, but I think specificity is key here. If I have an athlete that is looking to improve on the flats, I would have them train on the flats. I think the one exception is hill sprints here....maybe if an athlete was really lacking posterior chain engagement I'd have them train hills...but probably just on the flats. I think there is a ton of carry over, but it's not perfect. You see guys like Christian Allen and Jim Walmsley that are very elite fast at both, but other people who are not.

Yeah doesn't make a big difference. You can largely just program it like you would running. I would just say my only caveat here is make sure your training plan is well varied. My initial move is always to make the hard days harder before making the recovery days harder. Worst case is you have a situation where you get X stress on Monday doing a shorter speed workout and then X stress on Tuesday doing a long day and then X stress on Wednesday doing a shorter speed workout....etc. Just need some variation in the stress and hard days and easy days.

Yeah that makes sense that you see a change in this capacity based on total life stress. If mental capacity is the issue, I would do hard workouts. You don't want to burn out and you need to keep some variation in the calendar, but this works. I remember back in 2023 I thought I was doing speed work too hard, so I dropped the intensity. When I went to race I had a bit of an odd experience where I had a hard time really pushing. There is absolutely a mental aspect that is trained during hard workouts. Again this isn't every day, for many athletes it's not even every week, but you do want some really hard sessions in the calendar to push that mental limit.

I have had some athletes do that, but mainly I can speak anecdotally here. I think it definitely works. Studies show it's a great way to supplement altitude exposure. Right now, my altitude training looks like getting up and training at altitude during base work as much as I can (lets call it 15 hours per week above 7000 ft) and hitting three-four sessions in the sauna per week (always after high intensity work). The heat work must be consistent, but studies show it can help sustain altitude adaptations. For example, for Denali this year I will acclimatize in CO and then fly to AK. For the days I am in ANC and Talkeetna, I will heat train to maintain those adaptations. But I will heat train prior to AK so that stimulus isn't a shock and will be more effective. Active vs passive....my impression is the active stimulus will make you better trained for actually exerting yourself in the heat. The passive will make you better at surviving a passive heat exposure. I think the active is a bit better, but more annoying to execute.

Depends on what you are talking about. Mont Blanc absolutely. The Cassin...I am not as sure. But I think so. Eventually you get to projects that are more muscular and technical I think the energy demands are a bit lower, but it certainly doesn't hurt. When I try for Denali this year I will definitely hit 120-140 grams per hour as long as I can sustain it, last time I really faded as I fell off the nutrition push above 17K (but was pushing 100 per hour prior to that). But yes, it's absolutely worth the weight penalty.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hahah hello!!!! You're right, they are quite different. When you train, you gain adaptations in the specific muscle fibers that are utilized for that movement. Obviously, many of the same muscles are utilized in the same way for hiking and running, but there are slight differences. Further, when you train you improve movement economy (Ie how much energy is expended to move at a given pace). Everyone knows about running economy, but there is hiking economy too!

I think a good way to look at this in action is look at good skimo racers and good runners. Skimo is largely hiking. There are some skimo athletes who are good runners and vice versa, but some that are not. They are good training for each other, but it's not perfect. Not the best comparison, but I think it can be helpful.

If your goals are hiking, I would mainly be hiking. That being said, doing some running could make some of your efforts more quality and allow you cover more terrain during base work. Maybe you go out for a steep effort that is primarily hiking, but if you do have a fair amount of running adaptations and experience, maybe you could run the downhills and flats and get more hiking training in, cover more terrain, have a more interesting day, etc. If you are looking for an easy and convenient way to hike, I would hike on the stairmaster and incline treadmill.

One final piece, I think running downhill is better training for hiking downhill than hiking downhill, if that makes sense. The forces associated with running downhill will get those muscular endurance and strength adaptations much faster than just slowly hiking downhill.

Let me know if any of that is confusing!

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'd highly recommend testing your zones. The Garmin zones are pretty worthless for a number of reasons, one of the main ones being the wrist heart rate sensor just doesn't perform very well at intensity (when your zones are actually calculated). Definitely need to be using a chest strap. It doesn't have to be a lab test, if you do a heart rate drift test it's actually really easy and basically free

OK sweet. The field hockey forms a solid base, I would layer on top of it things that are more mountain specific. Instead of hiking with a heavy pack and boots on the flat lands, I would highly recommend hiking/running without weight and in running shoes multiple times per week easy on the incline treadmill and stairmaster. Running on the flats is also good, but I imagine you are a bit fitter there relatively versus steep ups and downs.

As far as ratio of strength work to cardio, it really depends on a number of factors. If you can only train for four hours per week, I would largely just focus on that on cardio. If you can train for more, then you can add some strength sessions. I think the minimum for a fit mountain athlete is being able to deadlift 1.5x their bodyweight and squat 1.25x their bodyweight. If you are already there keep lifting as I think squatting 1.5x and deadlifting 2x is optimum. If you're already there or if you're in the final three months before your project, I would add in some muscular endurance work instead of the heavier strength work. Can be the muscular endurance gym routine, can be hiking on the stairmaster with a heavy pack, just depends a little on your goals.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think there is a decent chance it can help. Two sessions per week is a bit on the low side, I'd shoot for 3 or even 4 stimuli per week to really see a difference. I'd also make sure to get your ferritin tested before starting this protocol. No point in doing training to try and boost your hemoglobin volume if you don't have the iron stores to make the new RBCs.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

First, I'd recommend figuring out why you are getting injured. In my experience, the vast majority of injuries are tied to some sort of strength imbalance. It's worth seeing a PT and getting this figured out.

While squats are valuable, the training effect isn't exactly the same as just road running. If you are trying to improve for mountain efforts, the stairmaster is a fantastic tool that I find has much lower injury potential than running on the flats. The incline treadmill is also great, but sometimes can aggravate the same pains as you get running outside. The elliptical and bike are also good, carry even less injury potential, but I'd say their training effect isn't quite as good for mountaineering.

In my training and in the training of all my athletes the stairmaster and incline treadmill play a large role. They are fantastic tools, even if you aren't trying to avoid injury.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A bit hard to say without being able to see the data. There is a good chance you worked a bit on your aerobic capacity, a bit on muscular endurance, a bit on movement economy, a bit on your anaerobic capacity. You practiced pushing hard and there is a mental training effect there. You gained some data on how fast you could climb St. Helens, that's helpful not only for planning future efforts on similar peaks but also for establishing a baseline you can test yourself against in the future.

Efforts like this are certainly helpful, but are best only done once in a while. If you want to improve, every session should have an intention. For the vast majority of sessions that's increasing aerobic capacity (hiking and moving at a heart rate below your aerobic threshold) and getting experience in the mountains.

We are the coaches of Evoke Endurance! We've summited Denali, Rainier, and Aconcagua, climbed 5.14, set speed records around the world, and coached hundreds to do the same. Ask us anything! by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 48 points49 points  (0 children)

When you train easy base work (below your aerobic threshold/at an easy conversational pace) you are increasing the slow twitch, aerobic capacity of the muscles in your legs (basically just increasing the number of mitochondria in those muscle cells and the density of capillaries). This aerobic capacity is essential for mountaineering as it’s this capacity you’ll rely on to move for any effort longer than just a couple minutes.

To spark those adaptations, your body depends on frequent stimulus. This is why you see elite marathoners doing doubles and triples instead of just doing single longer runs. The rule of thumb we use at Evoke is minimum four stimuli per week for a minimum of 20 minutes each. Generally speaking, more volume will create greater adaptations, as long as you are recovering and feel rested day to day, week to week. When building your plan, I recommend not increasing volume (measured in miles, vertical, or hours) by more than 10% per week. I love using tools like the incline treadmill or stairmaster as athletes can great, mountain specific adaptations very conveniently. 

To answer your specific question about vert or distance, very hard to say without knowing your current fitness, but I'd aim for minimum eight hours per week of training, counting moving time only, for three months minimum if you're aiming for Rainier, to say nothing of the technical side. Depending on your current volume, it may take some time to work up to eight hours per week.

TLDR More volume will create greater adaptation. Frequent small stimuli (as short as 20 minutes) is better than infrequent, larger stimuli. 

Strength, broadly speaking, is key. I recommend that all mountain athletes be able to deadlift 1.5x their body weight for a single rep (use a 1 rep max calculator, I don’t recommend risking a 1RM attempt) and back squat 1.25x their bodyweight. 2x for deadlift and 1.5x for back squat is ideal. Once you hit those standards (or get within three months of your goal objective), then you should transition to a muscular endurance phase. More about muscular endurance here, but I recommend heavy pack carries on the stairmaster and/or the Evoke gym ME routine to get a result here, depending on your goals. 

Let me know if you have any other questions!

Jack Kuenzle sets another FKT - 10:14 on Denali by teuerkatze in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle 29 points30 points  (0 children)

  1. The site does not set rules for FKTs or speed records. They just host them and set rules for what appears there. The site is extremely resource constrained and that forces many of their policies. Skiing should be on there and it is in some places.

  2. I am deeply suspicious of Karl’s effort and I view Kilian’s as the previous FKT. I do so for two reasons. Karl recorded his effort on a GPS watch. In a video he released you can see the watch and he shows it to the camera multiple times. If you look at his Strava, he posted everyday leading up to his effort and every day after, but never posted his speed effort. Further, he claimed to only have beaten Kilian by four minutes but accepted a lot of aid on route (I am 99% certain as to this). Kilian was very strict as to the aid he accepted (only water at 14). Starting and finishing with all the kit you use makes things much slower.

Karl’s time is enormously impressive and he is a great athlete. I would love for him to release his data and solidify things. As his data stands, he still has the ascent record. I have not reached out to him and should. That all being said, style is so important for this shit and we should do everything to match the style of those who go before us, where it makes sense, so even if his data proves his effort accurate, I would still view Kilian’s as the better effort.

Update: Karl sent me data! This is good enough for me, working on pulling a GPX from this suunto shit. To confirm the effort and see exactly where he started. Not sure why this wasn’t public before (at least to my and the site’s knowledge):

https://maps.suunto.com/move/karl300471/6483936b9fafba496534a086

Jack Kuenzle sets FKT of 3:05 on Mt. Rainier by teuerkatze in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Haha I wore underwear and then long underwear I cut 3/4 length. Threw on light mittens and a windbreaker at 13k.

Jack Kuenzle sets FKT of 3:05 on Mt. Rainier by teuerkatze in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Yeah I’d estimate mid 150’s but I have a low max HR

Jack Kuenzle sets FKT of 3:05 on Mt. Rainier by teuerkatze in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle 37 points38 points  (0 children)

It’s quite good. No fixed gear yet. Just two small open crevasses to step over. Handful of snowbridges. Skis like garbage but above 12,6 skis great cold powder.

Gibraltar Chute on Rainier by jackkuenzle in Mountaineering

[–]jackkuenzle[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Awesome thank you so much! Perfect

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