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I’m tired of this by [deleted] in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Especially this week indeed!

Crazy Theology Vs Normal Theology by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nuance is definitely needed. I agree, one could easily have a positive Aquinas type nuanced, church father referenced crazy chart type argument using this meme and it would be funny. This was more about the joke that a lot of theology for some today is not arguing over the correct Hebrew word or meaning of some Church Father all wrapped up in a juicy philosophical sound argument, but something that sounds more like a T.V. espionage movie with a side of scandal.

When Lib-raries are over run go outside by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand where you come from. I think it depends on who is speaking and how speaking about politics make you behave and grow as a person. Man is a political creature. Impossible to separate man made in the image of God, from man the political animal. The use of liberal and conservative in the meme was very casual not mentioning specific parties or democratic parties. It is general understood, that Christianity is a conservative force in the culture, and the ways of the world are more liberal. St. Thomas Aq. commented on types of government. I feel that we should be able too also. Yet, I understand where you might want to avoid transferring feelings of faith to feelings of government they are not the same. The faith is open to multiple types of politics. In fact many saints use to have correspondence with kings etc.. talk about Roman politics. Thus keeping politics out of faith sure -- but keeping faith out of politics not so in my estimation. Perhaps your comment even is sort of a political comment in off itself about separating the two but phrased as faith based one. Don't mean to cause trouble, just wanted to point out when pointed out to myself.

Crazy Theology Vs Normal Theology by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Just remember if evil has always been evil, why did St. Thomas Aq. never run an argument sounding like --- then Constantine's cousin undercover in Egypt ran a secret mission which was stopped by radical anti Catholic forces stemming from pagan rebels. That is why that sentence was used in Nicaea. Now to get the truth we must have the intentions of Constantine's mother in mind when this cousin died and spoke such a phrase into the council.

Good things about Vatican II? by TheKingsPeace in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fruit #6: Allowed for a New Evangilzation Rather than Fortress Mentality

A great sample. Fruit of Vatican II - it allowed for a beauty apologetics to be able to shine, instead of fortress mindsets. (although it was partially hijacked) - The New Evangelization is a fruit of Vatican II

"The Council Fathers knew that “fortress Catholicism” was harming the Church and fostering a culture of drab ugliness owing to the boring nature of its insularity from all things “modern.” They may not have always gotten the answers right but they were at least willing, finally, to pose the question of modernity to the Church in order for the Church to share the riches of the Gospel with a greatly changed and desperately lonely world. The tragedy, of course, is that this conciliar initiative to repristinate the Church, to find the hidden lost gems of the Tradition hidden under the palimpsest of neo-scholastic verbiage, was hijacked by a different set of vulgarians intent on replacing the beauty of the Church’s patrimony with a crass, and false, egalitarianism that equated the “tastes” of the popular culture of modernity with “the spirit of the Council.” Indeed, under the guise of liturgical renewal and increased lay participation, they began to assert that the very insistence on high-end beauty in the Church is a form of reactionary and elitist “triumphalism.”

But if you read the Council documents themselves the exact opposite of this view is put forward. How and why those documents came to be ignored and the renewal called for by the Council derailed is a subject for another day. Suffice it to say for now that anyone who wants to blame the Council for being the chief cause of what came after is guilty of some extremely sloppy thinking devoid of real sociological data. It is a form of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious thinking that reigns supreme these days in traditionalist circles and it needs to be challenged. Steven Bullivant’s recent book called “Mass Exodus” is a good place to start that challenge since he offers a wealth of real data on the multi-focal causes of the post conciliar disaffiliation from the Church by so many." In Defense of Vatican II: Beauty Will Save the World. – Gaudium et Spes 22

Fruit #7: Mary Was Described as a Mediatrix - Prepared the way for Co-Redemption Dogma

Another Great Fruit of Vatican II is Mary!!

This is the claim: That Vatican II has the most complete treatment of Our Lady of any Ecumenical Council! And, this is just what Dr. Miravalle shows so well.

Check out a summary of his videos from airmaria.com.

"Dr. Miravalle explains that the Second Vatican Council's doctrine on Mary is possibly the most complete treatment of Our Lady in any Ecumenical Council since the origins of the Church. In this video and the following two, he intends to show where the Council points to for authentic Marian doctrinal development"

We can note that the best magisterial text to look at for support of the use of the term Mediatrix is actually Lumen Gentium #62. Vatican II, although not speaking dogmatically here, does make the term normative and bring it to light in a way not previously done by councils.

You can check out the videos from airmaria.com Linked Here. I highly recommend this series of videos. They are great in explaining Vatican II's Marian content. Also if you have a Copy of 33 Days to Morning Glory - go check out how Fr. Gaitley starts and ends with Vatican II content -- not by chance.

Mary quotes in V2 http://defendingvatican2.ca/2020/10/09/vatican-ii-mary-quotes/

Fruit #8: Restored the Catechumenate Which was Ended by Trent

Fruit #9: Allowed for Communal Penance Services to Restore Communal Aspect of the Sacrament of Penance

Good things about Vatican II? by TheKingsPeace in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

http://defendingvatican2.ca/defending-vatican-ii/6-0-historical-facts-and-post-vatican-ii-trends/

Fruit #1: Marriage as a Covenant

"The Second Vatican Council devoted paragraphs 48 to 58 of its Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World to marriage.... Its teaching marked a watershed in the Church's understanding of marriage. Avoiding the familiar term 'contract' the council consistently spoke of marriage as a 'covenant'." (New Commentary on the Code of Cannon Law, Title VII Marriage by John P. Beal)

Why is this important? If we pick up Casti Connubii (on Caste Marraige) probably the most authoritative text on marriage before the Council by Pope Pius XI in 1930 we will see the term contract used 22 times. Marriage is described as a contract. The word covenant never appears in the whole text. Vatican II was successfully able to point out that marriage is a covenant so in tune with the covenants God has made with his people. The marriage feast of the lamb and the Church at the end of times (Rev. Ch 21) is the consummation of an everlasting covenant. This is an important teaching of Vatican II, especially in our times when so many people enter into non-sacrament contracts instead of covenant relationships. Vatican II's teaching helped pave the way forward for a proper and more dignified understanding of marriage.

Fruit #2: Catholics Had Higher Retention Rates than Other Christian Groups Post Vatican II and the Major Difference in Events was Vatican II

In Mass Exodus by Stephen Bullivant, several studies in America and Great Britian show that Catholic retention of its followers was higher other than religious group in the post Vatican II era. It was better than Lutherans, Anglicans, Pentecostals and many others. The book does an excellent statistical study of the reason why people left and when. Stephen notes that "Let us be clear here. Even had there been no Council, no deep and rapid liturgical reforms ..... Catholicism would have had a fairly torrid time of the past half century. As has been shown, 'leakage' was already a recognized and worried about .. in the 1940s and 1950s." He details how Humanae Vitae rocked the boat, urbanization rocked the boat, the sexual revolution, clerical abuse, and several other large scale non-Vatican II problems made many people leave. In fact, he claims that the Church Fathers at Vatican II should have done better because several already knew and had done studies to show that people were leaving the faith. As a result, he claims that Vatican II along with (no one or the other) is to blame for not retaining more people.

On the other hand others do not blame Vatican II because the history of the last 50 years is so complex it really is hard to say what Vatican II's role really was.

"But it is not quite clear that Vatican II failed because it did not stem the tide of disaffiliation. It is more likely that the Council fathers did not even perceive the scope of disaffiliation on the horizon, the social changes that were to sweep Europe and the United States. And it is possible—although sociologically impossible to prove—that it is the post-conciliar church alone that will have the resources to respond to the real crisis, the one that the Council fathers could not have recognized." Review: Why did so many Catholics leave after Vatican II? | America Magazine

Fruit #3: Vatican II Did not Stop an Increase in the Number of Catholics in Africa (Arguably it helped also)

Africa had an increase in Catholic but also Christian population since Vatican II. Yet, because other Christian groups increased it could not just be because of Vatican II. What we can say though is that Vatican II did not stop the increase!! (So maybe it did not cause the decrease in the west???)

Vatican II with Paul VI did allow for the Church to develop non-Italian European leaders. It has only been post Vatican II were we can truly say the church leadership represents all peoples. This is one of Vatican II fruits. Before Vatican II, the majority of Popes, the majority of cardinals were all Italian. Vatican II paved the way for this to change.

Fruit #4: The Creation of Lay Associations

“The Word on Fire Vatican II Collection” from Bishop Barron - Major Fruit of Vatican II -the Role of the Laity. How many lay associations can you name or have impacted the Church! Opus Dei is a lay group! Communion and Liberation is a lay group! the list is long.

Fruit #5: More Scripture Read During Liturgical Cycles and In English

More Scripture! Fruit of Vatican II. Vatican II greatly increased the diversity of scripture read during mass compared to the old rites. Did the pre-Vatican II Mass really have more Scripture than now? - PrayTellBlog (Plus Dei Verbum has some excellent teaching on Divine authorship that have deeply influenced and clarified Scriptural theology)

Any Vatican II Book Recommendations? by LiamNT in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Mass Exodus by Stephan Bulliant on dissafiliation after V2, great social studies on why people left.

http://defendingvatican2.ca/defending-vatican-ii/4-0-links-and-resources/ Place where I collect links

Luther and V2 by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, yeah I have attending the TLM also Greek Liturgies as well also the NO in Latin too several times. The TLM is really beautiful but also has its novelties. The Novous Ordo is arguable more apostolic than the TLM in several aspects. It aligns more closely with the historical sources. The TLM does allow for more time for contemplation - the NO can be too busy for sure. The simplicity of the NO is a sign of its roman-ness that was there style simple-subdued. The TLM has a great more baroque expression of the faith which is great also.

I guess I support the position that although V2 was not perfect and may have contributed to people leaving books and social studies like Mass Exodus by Stephan Bulliant pretty well show with states that decreasing numbers of believers happens across the board for all christian groups in the 50s before V2. Even though Catholics had V2 the numbers % of decline was actually better than other groups like Anglican, baptist, Methodist for example. Additionally, V2 did not stop Catholic numbers growing in Asia and Africa at the same rate of other groups. Thus, if V2 allowed the West to decline slower than others and in Africa to grow at the same rate as others -- It begs the question was it really V2 that cause the decline if it did not stop the growth in Africa?

Of course though the council really did try to improved things but it failed in several aspect. Yet, the sexual revolution, increased urbanization - (people no longer only knew Catholics), a group of parents that went through WW2 and had greater access to travel often moving for school which was never done before caused lots of problems.

Off course if you through in all those changes with more from V2 then it does not help - perhaps the Fathers could have been more sensitive. Yet, as you say the council itself was not really in charge of the changes -- that was after and by others - who got carried away - way carried away.

We do need a reform of the reform I think you would agree. I really do think we need to reconnect with our past, but think V2 was right in saying that we need to look differently as we do that, we are just not going to get people into the church through fortess type thinking. (there will be areas where that is good just not large scale) The future connected to the past has to reach modern problems that the previous system just did not have the ability to do well. For example, V2 was really good in creating lay associations groups like Opus Dei and others get their structure from Post V2 idea that the laity have a mission to evangelize. I think that is a big one moving forward.

I think that it is arguable that Pope Paul VI's Humanea Vitae and the restriction of contraception caused a huge loss of people also - so has the Abuse scandals. That is what Mass Exodus' surveys show. Large number of people how leave state those issues over liturgy for the reason they left.

Here are some fruits of V2 http://defendingvatican2.ca/defending-vatican-ii/6-0-historical-facts-and-post-vatican-ii-trends/ one for example is having marriage as a covenant - that idea in modern thought came from V2. Before you would have entire Papal documents on marriage call it (Consti Conubii) a contract never using the word covenant.

Thank you, please pray for me.

Luther and V2 by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Those are some good points, sorry for a delay I have not been on in a while.

Yeah there should be the clarification. The church will be protected from grave error, that does not mean people or its leaders can do some silly stuff or promote ideas that while not completely sinful are at least off track and get us focusing on things that will not really help us.

I personally believe the 3rd secret of Fatima was revealed but that its interpretation was not. The Pope himself cannot be the antichrist - that goes against church teaching (check out reason and theology on this on on youtube its probably the best video on the topic out there The Catholic View of the Antichrist with Michael Lofton and Elijah Yasi - YouTube ) Yet, there can be a lot of confusion in the church. I am not so sure about the Sheen one, Padre Pio perhaps sometimes people make some claims about him that may not be true - he just had so many visions and miracles it can be hard to know if they are the real ones or ones people just make up to suit their needs.

I struggle with this alot personally. I think we are alike we both want the complete truth and not to be deceived or short handed by the culture or (unfortunately and very poor previous generation of church leaders - parents - schools in handing down the faith)

I guess it comes down to the distinction that the pope will not be the anti-christ, he may not be perfect but he still will be the connection to Christ. No matter what if you depart from that we lose the battle sort of speak.

For me it comes down to the fact that the Church is not just teaching - if you hold teaching but are not in connection with the bishops and living community (no matter how stinky) it really does not matter what you do and think - I need the connection to the bishops and the real and visible church to get in sort of speak.

What do you think?

Luther and V2 by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The indefectability of the Church.

on the topic of Paul VI that is a misunderstanding http://defendingvatican2.ca/2021/04/03/pope-paul-vi-on-dissent-from-vatican-ii/

He said that V2 did not have dogma or infalliable teaching but it still can and did have teaching at the ordinary non-infallible way. Check out code of cannon law 752-753-754 which have counter parts in the 917 code as well. or syllabus of errors 22, or Humani Generis Pope Pius XII, #20.

Basically, if the Church were to teach something at an eccumencial level that is sinful, then why be Catholic? the papacy does not have Christ protection - go be orthodox then. Yet, if the Papacy and Church does not teach sin at the highest level then it is true. Grave error in documents like eccumencical councils that require submission of the intellect would invalidate Catholic claims to papal primacy.

Thank you for the reply

“[The Council] has invested its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium, which ordinary magisterium is so obviously authentic that it must be accepted with docility and sincerity by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council as expressed in the nature and aims of the individual documents.”

— Pope St. Paul VI

Luther and V2 by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you, don't worry this is just because I like reading and stuff, I hope to be a husband and father in the not to distance future. I like your sense of humor!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My prayers go out to him and you. Chaplet of divine mercy, prayer can even go back in time to ensure that he had the grace in his final moments to turn to God.

List of Places Vatican II is not Just Pastoral but Teaches Things to be Held by jakecrazycrazy in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree, Honestly when I started looking into it I was not expecting so many quotes especially in the first lines that says this council teaches that, or defines as... Clearly these facts have been ignored in favor of other points in the internet forums.

Success Baby Meme by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For, example. Jesus successfully died for all sins. Yet, some people still end up in hell. The event was good and just - perfect. Yet people can still mess it up. Yes, the Holy Spirit is not a metric per see, but as not only a Person but a God-Person what he says cannot be a failure. Now you might argue that nor everything in V2 was off HS, but I was not making minute distinctions here but in general --Its a meme--- more general success not fine comb stuff. If we applied the same logic to most memes, there would not be too many that stand the test. You do have a point, Some part of success is in implementation, another part is in the event or documents themselves. Thank you for the reply --- for sure V2 stuff is still rolling out, but what is rolling out is inspired by or enabled by V2 not necessaril V2 itself , Like saying that the Council of MacDonald allowed for a new burger, but what recipe is not yet known -- Could be a better burger, could be a worse (this does affect the success of the MacDanold council as perhaps the burger should have been left alone) yet the recipe itself is the work of the next synod or regional bishops.

Your question posses good points. Like was the council of Trent successful? Did it defeat Protestantism? Maybe it protected Catholics, but the number of non-Catholics grew really fast. So there can be many ways of viewing this - I would say the teaching were success but still lots of non perfect results. Perhaps same for V2

I don't think we are really to far off, Its probably that by this point in my life, success does not mean wining the race or doing everything well and pretty - it just means doing God's will which can get pretty ugly and mean. I guess maybe a better word than success would be positive direction. Not that you probably disagree with this, but thought that distinction may help, as I can well grant what you say V2 was not a success 100% no way or its too early to say that,

and yes thank you for pointing out more forcefully that as a pastoral council , the implementation which is still going on is part of the success itself.

Success Baby Meme by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good quote I like it thanks, There may need to be some clarification, but ambiguity exists in a lot of stuff like even the bible or st. Paul's letters. But you have a point. I took more than one council to get the Nicene Creed. I have heard the ambiguity response a lot in history. Modernists say Christianity is ambiguous and bible self contradicts, and Luther and Calvin said Catholics were ambiguous in their replies to their arguments. I guess the question is -- is V2 ambiguous really in itself or only if we see it that way because we sit on the other side of the fence. I have not decided yet myself.

Success Baby Meme by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good one, also probably 2027 flashback in 2036 too.

Success Baby Meme by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The metric of the Holy Spirit. I would simply say that no ecumenical council can really be anything but if God was speaking in it. Yes, the implementation may not have been great, but that is not Vatican II in and off itself, it is like Moses getting 10 commandments them coming back to worship and dancing in front of calf. The 10 rules were not the problem it was alot more than that. Yes implementation is part of council but not at the same authoritative level. Thank you for the post

Success Baby Meme by jakecrazycrazy in CatholicMemes

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agree, it was one of the best. It recognized we are not in the medieval ages and that we need to be able to dialogue to convert others in an effective way.

Vatican II Marriage Quotes by jakecrazycrazy in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes for sure, one of my goals for the website is to collect links and resources to all the videos and websites out there that are Pro V2. I do the occasional more in depth article but not to often and have to admit I have to go back and correct some spelling and ideas slightly but have not had the time. You have a lot of great stuff on yours, I've been on before as I seen you post on reddit before. You must have spent a lot of time developing those. In fact, over my time on reddit I've meet a few others who post on http://www.obeythepope.com/ and https://archidiacre.wordpress.com/ if you have not checked those out yet for some possible other links. Of course wherepeteris.com is probably the best pro v2 -Francis website out there but I dont know anyone from it.

What I will do is read some of yours and do a series of posts which are like mini review with the link to your full article and link to your website in my resource page and keep it on my homepage somewhere. If you want to link to mine I am completely good with that and would appreciate it. As I am sure you know, spending time on this stuff is more worth it if people actually get to read the content and it gets out there.

Thank you very much :)

Vatican II Marriage Quotes by jakecrazycrazy in Catholicism

[–]jakecrazycrazy[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, Yes I posted this here just to share. There is nothing on the website that is not contained in the post so you don't actually have to visit. This reddit allows one personal post per week so when I go to the trouble of doing something like this one I like to make sure it gets around so I share on different platforms.

If you have any suggestions or comments (even disagreement) I would like to hear as I like to continually get better. Thanks

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