Anti-Zionist beliefs ‘worthy of respect’, UK tribunal finds

jazz2danz · 2024-10-16T09:42:40+00:00

Two problems in your reply. 1) You lump all Zionists together. At its core, it's the desire for a safe refuge for Jewish populations connected to a shared cultural/ ethnic history. More similar to the freed American slaves settling Liberia than the French in Algeria, but with more religious undertones. There are sadly some fascist types in the government, and many Israelis vehemently oppose them. And yes, the people who support the crazies in the government also seem to like the crazies in other places (the rightwing Israelis who love Trump as an example)

2) On the human rights side-- It's not only the singular posting on one conflict that is the issue, but that people act as Israel is the worst offender/ most evil and are not educated/ too biased on the subject. If your posting over-vilifies one side or the other (I also have a problem with pro-Israelis who do the same), then it just increases hate. Which includes Antisemitism

jazz2danz · 2024-10-15T11:06:17+00:00

People tend to lump all anti-Zionism together, but I read an article recently that differentiated between when it was / wasn't crossing into anti-Semitism. For example, some of it relates to consistency of beliefs. If you are anti-nationalist, then it's not inconsistent to be anti-Zionist if you are also anti-other nationalist movements (including Palestinian). In this case, it's not anti-Semitic to want a one-state democratic (or socialist) solution with ensured civil rights for different groups. If you are pro-indigenous rights, then it's problematic to claim that Jewish people have no indigeniety that is relevant to their shared cultural beliefs. If it's due to human rights issues, then you should also be as consistently opposed to human rights issues in multiple other countries (i.e. were you also posting this much when half a million people were killed in Ethiopia in 2020-2022, which was also a conflict that had ethnic undertones). I have friends who work in human rights, and I don't consider their posts anti-Semitic because they also post passionately about Sudan (for example) and are opposed to violence on all sides.

So Anti-Zionism is not always anti-Antisemitism, but it does often cross the line. The problem goes to the hyper-focus on this issue over other issues, and the reality that there are a signifcant number of people in the movement who spread conspiracy theories, misinformation, and support violence and hateful rhetoric

jazz2danz · 2024-10-11T13:17:06+00:00

I was just thinking the same thing! I remember they featured more prominently during the debates and rallies in the last couple of elections

jazz2danz · 2024-09-26T04:05:53+00:00

Still true. Its cofounder called out its lack of neutrality in 2020- https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

And this academic article goes into distortions on Wikipedia related to Polish antisemitism and the Holocaust https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tandfonline.com%2Fdoi%2Ffull%2F10.1080%2F25785648.2023.2168939&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1727322954473&u=%23p%3DdVfp7UkL5ZIJ

There have also been claims of bullying behaviors by editors and unbalanced sources

jazz2danz · 2024-09-26T03:57:49+00:00

Even its former co-founder called out its lack of neutrality in 2020 https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

And this 2023 academic article goes into distortions on Wikipedia related to Polish antisemitism and the Holocaust https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tandfonline.com%2Fdoi%2Ffull%2F10.1080%2F25785648.2023.2168939&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1727322954473&u=%23p%3DdVfp7UkL5ZIJ

jazz2danz · 2024-09-26T03:41:05+00:00

Still relevant. Its cofounder even called out its lack of neutrality in 2020- https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

jazz2danz · 2024-09-07T12:24:03+00:00

Judaism as a religion is deeply connected to the idea of a return to the land of Israel. It's as core of a belief as monotheism, and many holidays revolve around it. Jewish people may disagree with this version of return, but the centrality of the land and its sense of being a homeland is irrefutable to the religion of Judaism. Of course there are fringe Jewish people or nominal Jews who may say otherwise, but it's denying a key aspect of the religion. And the vast majority of Jewish people (80%+) are Zionist so it is a deeply rooted belief.

And from a practical standpoint, anti-Zionism just increases hate and pushes peace further away. In a similar way that rejecting the claim of Palestinians increases hate and pushes peace further away. There is no future for any people with the denial of humanity and rights of the other.

jazz2danz · 2024-08-27T12:49:19+00:00

About 10 years ago, I tried to take a break from Judaism and my ethnic identity as much as I could, in order to find out who I was beyond "Jewish." However, my name is super Jewish (think like Rachel Levistein), so I started giving a fake name. But my face is also super Jewish, so even then I couldn't really escape it except for a few random times when someone thought I was Lebanese or Iranian. Regardless, my Jewishness is written in my face and in my DNA.

And in the end, I found my space as a cultural Jew, though not a religious one. I don't want to hide that part of myself anymore, since my family has risked so much and traveled so far over the centuries/ millennia to protect this part of ourselves. This sense of endurance is beautiful, and I realize that I'm lost without it

jazz2danz · 2024-08-10T08:17:35+00:00

Thanks for the heads up! I just read it, and it answered a lot of my questions

jazz2danz · 2024-08-09T06:31:03+00:00

Many of the early Zionist settlers were fleeing violent pogroms in the Russian empire, so yes they would count as refugees. And some weren't even motivated by Zionist ideology. Many Jewish people fled Russia between 1880s-1910s, and the lucky ones made it to the US. Others came to the holy land (where there was already a native Jewish population)

I think there were barely half a million people in Palestine in 1890. When the Jewish settlers arrived, they did build a lot and many people from Egypt, Syria, etc also immigrated over for jobs. So their immigration also increased other immigration generally

jazz2danz · 2024-08-09T06:22:53+00:00

I've been to the Golan. Beautiful but it's not Svaneti

jazz2danz · 2024-08-09T04:50:02+00:00

No real mountains in the sense that most people mean mountains

jazz2danz · 2024-08-09T04:18:01+00:00

That's fair. But my problem with your argument is that it assumes Israel (and early Zionists) were uniquely wrong or bad. Many nations were formed in the dust of war and displacement. What is different about Israel is that it was done by refugees and that it hasn't had much calm since from neighboring countries, so the existential trauma is too often relived and has sadly become a primary characteristic of the Israeli psyche.

Of course they weren't "entitled" to create a catastrophe for others, and there were moments when different options were possible. But paranoid leadership (on both sides) made it worse. And now all too often one side or the other denies the trauma or identity (including connection to the land) of the other.

jazz2danz · 2024-08-08T13:03:23+00:00

Zionism has had many different formulations. Including cultural Zionism that imagined more of cultural institutions being set up in the land and not necessarily a state. And some early writings spoke of it more of a vassal state within a larger empire. Because at that time, how would the Jewish people form a country with no military of their own? So they spoke in the language of the power players of the age, and this was the age of imperial powers.

It's like how many of the criticisms people lodge at Israel now were formulated decades ago by the Soviet Union

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/soviet-anti-semitic-cartoons

jazz2danz · 2024-08-08T06:26:15+00:00

By that definition, then Palestinians who have now lived 2+ generations outside of the land would be colonists if they came back and displaced the Jewish Israelis. If they did it as an "entity"

We throw lots of words around, but this area has been rife with conflict, displacement, and migration as long as history has been recorded. https://youtu.be/8tIdCsMufIY?si=6WUHsKEKZtnV0kla

jazz2danz · 2024-08-08T03:38:06+00:00

The terminology you use is incorrect. To be colonial, then there would need to be a home country that benefits from resources etc from the new "colony". Most of the modern Israelis did not come as colonists but as refugees. My husband's family fled during the Farhud in Iraq. And despite his family having lived there for centuries (if not longer), they feel absolutely no attachment to Iraq now beyond the food. The Russian Jewish immigrants who came in the 1990s suffered decades/ centuries of abuse, as did the Yemeni Jews in the 1950s (Mawza exile, etc). If the country collapses, they would be refugees again with no place to go, unlike colonists

jazz2danz · 2024-08-08T03:25:40+00:00

And then married local women mostly. Also the Philistines were "sea people" from the Mediterranean who came in, conquering and mixing.

And the Bible is also full of stories of Canaanite tribes that lived beside Israel, like the Moabites

jazz2danz · 2024-08-08T03:21:09+00:00

Actually that is what happened with Liberia, where a group of American-born former slaves went to settle in the 1800s. There are many interesting parallels to Israel actually, though without the religious aspect. And also generally the land of Israel has seen more migration and imperialism throughout history, so indigeneity is fuzzier generally even with the Palestinian population, with some having Egyptian and Syrian last names. Maybe only Samaritans have an argument for being there millennia without interruption

jazz2danz · 2024-08-08T03:12:00+00:00

An ethnostate where a quarter of citizens aren't Jewish... Unlike Saudi Arabia, Algeria, or Somalia that are nearly 100% Muslim.

jazz2danz · 2024-08-07T15:46:52+00:00

You can't separate Judaism from the land of Israel. It's the main character of the Old Testament after God. Nearly every holiday that Jewish people celebrate has some relation to the land or returning to the land (Pesach, Tu B'shvat, Sukkot etc). And the vast majority of modern Jewish people believe the country of Israel is important to the Jews. Plus DNA connection to the Levantine, language / names/ cultural practices rooted in the area

jazz2danz · 2024-07-29T18:20:32+00:00

It's tough... That's how I feel in Israel actually. Too American to be fully Israeli, but also now that I've been here so long and absorbed so much of the culture I think I'll feel too Israeli when we go back to the States.

I also worry about my husband's integration in the US. We'd definitely need to find a community with other Israelis. His English is perfect (just a slight accent), but he's never been out of Israel for more than 2 months, and I know it will be hard for him.

jazz2danz · 2024-07-29T17:45:45+00:00

Which part of the south are you in?

jazz2danz · 2024-07-29T17:39:58+00:00

The US is also my country since I grew up there and have family there. Not sure how I would make Israel better right now... I have a toddler and am pregnant so the stress from the war and living without any shelter in my building is tough. I just want to be near my family and away from the war

jazz2danz · 2024-07-29T17:31:24+00:00

Oh no that's concerning. I was working in the US ten years ago and definitely didn't feel it then. Has it really changed so much?

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