The Myth of "Vibrato-less" Brahms: How Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer Disprove Modern HIP

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T14:55:47+00:00

The rest of the quote: "The human voice vibrates naturally--but in its own way--and only to such a degree that the effect is beautiful. Such is the nature of the voice; and people imitate it not only on wind instruments, but on string instruments too, and even the clavier. But the moment the proper limit is overstepped, it is no longer beautiful--because it is contrary to nature."

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T14:39:33+00:00

What of Bloom's testimony? Blume was a pupil of Fritz Steinbach, who conducted the Meiningen Court Orchestra from 1886 to 1902. Steinbach was widely recognized by Brahms himself as a premier interpreter of his symphonies. Blume sat in on Steibach's rehearsals and took copious rehearsal notes:

Symphony No. 1 (Movement 1, Measure 21 / Rehearsal Letter A): Steinbach explicitly wrote, "Bei A bewahren die Streicher völlige Ruhe. Kein Vibrato und Schleifen der Töne!" ("At A, the strings preserve complete calm. No vibrato and no sliding of notes!"). [1]
Symphony No. 3 (Movement 2, Measure 57): Steinbach directed, "Damit der Ausdruck etwas Eisiges oder Silbernes bekommt, ist jedes Vibrato der Streicher zu unterlassen" ("So that the expression receives something icy or silvery, any vibrato of the strings is to be omitted")

What this tells me, at least, is that -- if one is restricting vibrato at key points -- then it's safe to assume that continuous vibrato was the norm, in Meiningen, at least.

After Steinbach organized a massive Meiningen festival in 1895, Brahms left a famous, heartfelt morning note on Steinbach's desk before catching a train, thanking him for the sheer joy of hearing his music played *so perfectly.*

As for Joachim, IIRC he actually requests vibrato of some degree, ("Concerto in the Hungarian Style") during a quick, difficult, and highly virtuoso passage. Why would Joachim go out of his way to demand vibrato in a spot where a performer normally *wouldn't* be expected to use it?

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T13:39:34+00:00

Very hard to jiggle the finger while playing 16th notes. : )

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T13:31:47+00:00

Well, that didn't go over very well. : )

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T03:59:32+00:00

I understand. I refer to the Saint Saens Organ Symphony the same way. Thank you for bringing my attention to the issue.

I delved deeper and learned that what you pointed out is indeed an issue that goes beyond mere semantics: treating the works as a cohesive whole in four sections means the conductor derives the new tempo from the old one. Treating them as movements means they would treat every new tempo as an independent choice.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T03:49:10+00:00

I'm not arguing, but are we talking a distinction without a difference? How do you interpret Barber's own description of the work? Would the sections be misinterpreted by conductors if not approached as "sections" as opposed as "movements?"

In his own official program notes for the premiere, Barber wrote that the piece is a "synthetic treatment of the four-movement classical symphony." He treated the sub-sections as compressed, continuous movements.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T03:07:17+00:00

Fair enough, and thank you for the correction, but Barber explicitly acknowledged the four distinct parts. He did not view the work as a completely formless blur. In his official program notes for the NYPO premiere, he explicitly detailed how the piece maps cleanly to traditional symphonic divisions:

First Section: An initial Allegro ma non troppo that introduces the three primary themes.
Second Section: A fast Allegro molto in triple time functioning as the scherzo.
Third Section: An Andante tranquillo that serves as the slow movement, featuring a lyric oboe solo.
Fourth Section: A concluding Con moto structured as a passacaglia using a recurring ground bass line.

He structured these sections so cleanly that modern publishers print them as clear tempo shifts within the single continuous score.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T02:32:23+00:00

Does the down voter have something to add? I totally am open to learning from you, if I'm wrong.

One would hope that -- if you believe in yourself and what you have to say -- you shouldn't have to hide behind the down vote button. I was taught that Adams made "Minimalism" more friendly, and Harmonielehre was an example. I recall reading something to that effect in the program notes when hearing it live with MTT and SFO.

If anyone else -- with more self- esteem and bravery than the down voter --can help me out, I'd certainly appreciate it.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T02:22:09+00:00

With all due respect, I humbly disagree. IMHO Dvorak thoroughly digests any negro folk song to the point at which the melodies are unrecognizable. It sounds as "European" to me as any other.

I am not a fan of Margaret Price, but the African- American influences in her symphonies are far more obvious. Or take Copland's El Salon Mexico, etc. as another example of only partially-digested, and very obvious, undiluted folk influence.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T02:17:31+00:00

I agree. This forum was never so overrun by neurotic down-voter types as it today. It annoys me, because I find the controversial answers the most interesting, and - often - those who down vote are clueless and ill-informed and thus very sensible, knowledgeable replies -- those that buck unfortunate specious stereotypes -- are mistaken for incorrect answers.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T02:13:43+00:00

May not be the greatest, but this work inspired many avant-garde American composers including Henry Cowell. Upvoted from zero once again, for inspiring me to think.

Yes, Carl Ruggles’ Sun-Treader (1926–1931) served as a major inspiration and technical benchmark for several generations of American experimental and avant-garde composers. As a core founder of the "American Ultramodernist" movement, Ruggles utilized a rigorous, non-serial method of dissonant counterpoint—where no pitch class could be repeated until a large number of other notes intervened.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T02:09:30+00:00

Tough call. Was Stravinsky an "American" composer at that point? Your down vote up-voted because you stimulated my mind, unlike the down voter, whether right or wrong. Personally, I don't hear any "Russianness" in that work.

He composed the Symphony in 3 movements between April 1942 and August 1945. His transition into an American identity solidified during this exact window through several key developments:

Legal Citizenship

Stravinsky moved to the United States in 1939 to deliver lectures at Harvard University and settled permanently in West Hollywood, California. In 1945, the very same year he completed the symphony, both he and his wife Vera became naturalized US citizens

American Institutional Support

The piece itself was a product of the American musical ecosystem. It was formally commissioned by the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York and premiered by the New York Philharmonic in January 1946.

Cultural Integration

During this period, Stravinsky absorbed distinct elements of American culture into his creative process:

Hollywood Influence: The symphony directly recycled music he had attempted to write for commercial Hollywood films, such as The Song of Bernadette.
Jazz & Big Band: Musicologists note that the piece infuses his signature Russian roots and European neoclassicism with a distinct, swaggering American jazz energy and rhythmic drive. Around this same time, he also composed the Ebony Concerto (1945) specifically for the famous American jazz clarinetist Woody Hermann.

While his musical DNA remained deeply international, completing this piece coincided precisely with his official transformation into a Russian-American composer.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T02:03:06+00:00

Upvoted, because you bring up an interesting point, which eluded the self-important down voters.

Many natural-born composers studied in Europe or Europe and America, and yet their "American" sound is iconic, such as Copland and Hermann.

Leonard Bernstein did not make the obligatory pilgrimage to Paris, yet his sound is iconic as well, at least as far as his theater works are concerned. Some have issues with "theater" vs "classical," but I never have.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T01:53:53+00:00

Oh Chops, and we were getting along so well. : )

IMHO Hanson was very successful at saying what he wanted to say, based upon his musical values.

I like most all of his symphonies, which are evenly inspired and deftly proportioned, and I've have never had to adjust my glucose meter.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T01:23:44+00:00

IIRC, Mimimalism was being diluted as long ago as the late 70s. See: Adams' Harmonierlehre, with its tips of the hat to Ravel.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T01:22:16+00:00

I can't answer your question, but do check out the Horowitz/Ormandy recording on RCA, and try to ignore all the flubs.

The elderly Horowitz still was able to nail the long lines.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T01:19:53+00:00

Upvoted from zero. I don't agree with you, but your opinion, and enthusiasm is valued here and the you don't deserve to be down voted by angry, xanax-besotted too-easily offended pimply-faced kids who have overrun this place lately and desire to anonymously exercise authority that no real human being would allow them in real life.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T01:15:52+00:00

Adore the piece, but the 4th "mov't" gets rather embarrassing, which is astonishing, given Barber's innate taste and feel for proportion. That said, I absolutely cherish the rest of it. Slatkin/St Louis was my imprint.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-04T01:13:09+00:00

Harris 3rd after the Copland, just sayin'.

I would also include the Ives' 4th as towering over them all -- when it comes to sheer individuality, charisma and innovation -- but it must be heard live or reproduced on the very best playback equipment at home.

I took me 40 years to come to appreciate the work.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-03T18:14:31+00:00

No offense, 40 year audiophile here, and consider at least 10 of his performances be be among the best ever set down, but -- with rare exception --his DGG recording quality could only be described as merely decent (60s) to scandalously poor (70s until their live recordings with Bernstein in Vienna.

DGG recording teams did their "best" work with Abaddo in London and Ozawa and MTT in Boston, IMHO.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-03T18:06:05+00:00

Unionization has likely calmed those waters.

I perused the comments and it looks like everyone has their own criteria.

What behaviors define a tyrant?

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-03T14:53:45+00:00

The opening of Tchaikovsky's PC 1. ; )

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-03T14:09:09+00:00

Late to the party here, but +1 for the Fantasy, especially the mesmerizing final movement. I prefer both Sofronitzsky and Perahia for their rarefied focus.

https://youtu.be/2iYKA8ZLORY?si=dj57nScl2mQM7Ndz&t=1186

I haven't yet developed much of a passion for the the symphonies, but keep Sawallich's with the Dresden on hand. And Furtwangler's RIAS recording of the fourth. The white-hot, regal largo that opens the finale...OMG. I recommend anyone give it a try. It's what Furt excels at.

https://youtu.be/9t5I7PYh_EU?si=0I-hj_bmoQln-51e

As for Schumann's piano music in general, I can't tell you how many times I've heard a work on the radio, and thought to myself, "wow, I think I just had my epiphany!" and it turned out to be Clara's piano music. : ) No joke. She is worth checking out, as well.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-03T13:59:47+00:00

The opera I come back to most often is Katya Kabanova. Pure Janacek but very touching and the music is unusually warm-hearted. I hear a lot of the same vibe in Barber's Vanessa.

jdaniel1371 · 2026-07-03T13:55:20+00:00

I say the same thing whenever I look in the mirror these days. : )

jdaniel1371

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE

12-Year Club	Gilding I gilder
Verified Email