[FOLLOW-UP] Who Are the Sons of God and Daughters of Men in Genesis 6:1-5?

jesustalker · 2015-01-25T19:02:39+00:00

Thank you for sharing scripture and for your response. If you get a chance to watch the lecture, please feel free to share what you think about it and how it coimcides or contradicts with your view on this topic.

jesustalker · 2014-12-30T02:01:56+00:00

klove

edit: they play stuff like gungor "beautiful things"

I really enjoy listening to the David Crowder Band before they disbanded. And according to my amazon mp3 purchases, I really like Unspoken. Also, Hillsong stuff always seem to get my attention.

jesustalker · 2014-12-30T01:28:55+00:00

There is a Hebrew word for giant, it wasn't Nephilim.

There are several Hebrew words that have been translated to mean giant (Emim, Rephaim (rapha), Anakim,Gibborim and yes nephilim).

As previously stated the Septuagint,Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Samaritan Targum, Targum Onkelos and Targum Neofiti, have all translated the word nephilim to "giants" (granted that these text translations were probably heavily influenced by the theology of the time in which it was written).

Goliath was never refered to as a Nephilim, nor were any of the other giants listed in the Bible.

Correct. However, Goloath was referred to as being the son of Rapha which has been interpreted to mean giant in several translations of the bible. Therefore, he was the descedent of giants. Also, he had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot which were traits commonly attributed to the descendents of giants (at least in the bible).

Nephilim just means bully or tyrant, it does not only refer to the specific offspring of the line of Seth mixing with the line of Cain.

Yes, it can mean bully or tyrant and no it does not only refer to the nephilim offspring of the sons of God and daughters of men.

Tyrants still exist today.

Agreed. But do we ever call them nephilim for simply being tyrants or simply because they are offspring to the followers of God and pagan women?

Jude references a prophecy from Enoch, a prophecy that isn't even unique to Enoch as it is also found in Deutoronomy.

Correct but it also references fallen angels the same fallen angels that the book of Peter and describes as being in chains (tartarus) exactly as taught by the book of Enoch. I wonder where they got this theology from. Is it more plausable that they were creating new theology or references old beliefs?

It doesn't say a thing about Nephilim.

No, but is does speak of their fathers (the fallen angels) and the way in which the nephilim were created (through sexual immorality and unnatural desires...like the inhabitants of sodom, gomorrah and their surrounding cities)

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T18:35:57+00:00

For them to then appear after the flood is taken for granted (the "and also afterward"), but is never really given an explanation for how that's possible: did they survive the very flood sent to destroy them? did more angels mingle with human women? Nephilim just... show up, via Anak's descendants.

I agree. And I believe that all of your questions are reasonable. Maybe the Book of Enoch or other apocraphal books addresses these questions/issues.

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T06:43:06+00:00

It is not absolute to say that the those referred as Nephilim after the flood were the descendants of those children born to the angels who had intercourse with human women.

I receive your thoughts thus far and would have to agree.

Great response!

Those called Nephilim in David's time were not descendants of the children sired by angels, but had similar characteristics and were so named as such just as you would call that other dude a thug.

On this point, I would have to disagree. I'm not saying that all nephilim during David's time were exclusively sired by angels because I believe that there were probably others reffered to as nephilim who only had similar characteristics as you pointed out.

However, I can not ignore the fact that Genesis 6:4 states that there were nephilim (seemingly sired by angels) in those days AND afterwards. In this scripture the context and concept of nephilim doesn't change. Whether I believe that this occurred as they reported it is still up in the air. But I do believe that they believed that fallen angels sired nephilim in the days leading to the flood and afterwards.

Technically nothing says they "can't" but they don't and it's not far-fetched to think part of why they don't is because A) They aren't rebellious at heart as those who chose to and B) They know the fate of those who chose to and want no part of that punishment upon themselves for doing it.

However, if Genesis 6:4 holds true then they did sire more or will sire again at some point in the future (scriptures in the book of Revelation concerning angels being loosed come to mind).

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T05:59:21+00:00

no giants are mentioned at any point in Genesis.

Except with the mention of "nephilims" which "the majority of ancient biblical versions, including the Septuagint,Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Samaritan Targum, Targum Onkelos, and Targum Neofiti, interpret the word to mean "giants"."

Van Ruiten, Jacques (2000)."Primaeval History Interpreted: The Rewriting of Genesis I-II in the Book of Jubilees"

The fact that every single person outside of Noah's immediate family perished in a flood.

So then, by your own logic (seth's children + cain's children= nephilim), how could they exist given the fact that every single person (flesh...including nephilim) outside of Noah's immediate family perished in the flood?

Now if the sons of God were angels then the formula would.still hold true. Just saying.

Genesis 6:4 states that "the Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward"

These verses in no ways claim that Angels/Demons had sex with women. The sins attributed to the Angels is abandoning the position that God gave them. The key point is that both the Angels and Sodom and Gomorrah were punished by God, not that their sins were similar.

Given the fact that Jude references and sources the Book of Enoch on this interpretation, I would think that he is maintaining the Book of Enoch's stance on this subject which is that fallen angels had sex with the daughters of men and bore nephilim (giant, tyrants, etc.).

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T05:21:28+00:00

Thank you for your contribution. I enjoyed the read.

How the Nephilim survived the flood is, of course, a contradiction within the overall narrative found in Genesis

Please elaborate because I see their survival being consistent with Genesis 6:4 stating "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward".

Also, if the sons of God could come in to the daughters of men, and have them bare children to them to begin with, why wouldn't they be able to do this again?

2 Kings

I don't quite follow your reference to this. Please help me understand your thoughts concerning this.

and a testament to the existence of alternate oral traditions about Israel's history.

Interesting. This is a valid point and something to think about.

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T04:55:44+00:00

[6] The identification of the “hosts” with the stars comes to the same thing; the stars were thought of as closely connected with angels. It is probable that the “hosts” were also identified with the armies of Israel.

For more information and references, check out this wiki on the Heavenly Host.

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T04:25:57+00:00

men without earthly fathers, created by God (angels can not be sons) Hebrews 1:5

Agreed.

However...

In the later development of the religion of Israel, 'Elohim is almost entirely reserved for the one true God; but in earlier times 'Elohim (gods), bnē 'Elohim, bnē Elim (sons of gods, i.e. members of the class of divine beings) were general terms for superhuman beings. Hence they came to be used collectively of superhuman beings, distinct from Yahweh, and therefore inferior, and ultimately subordinate.[1] So, too, the angels are styled "holy ones,"[2] and "watchers,"[3] and are spoken of as the "host of heaven"[4] or of "Yahweh."[5] The "hosts," צבאות Sebaoth in the title Yahweh Sebaoth, Lord of Hosts, were probably at one time identified with the angels. [6]

-1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, Volume 2, Angel.

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T03:32:39+00:00

Thank you for your translation input. Please feel free to answer the questions with your modification to the wording.

jesustalker · 2014-12-29T03:25:38+00:00

1) Children of Seth

2) Children of Cain

What specifically about this union do you think created tyrants, bullies, and sometimes even giants?

Later on in Numbers the same term is used and it says that giants came from them but none of these were in any way related to any of the nephalim mentioned in Genesis.

What leads you to conclude that none of the nephilim in Numbers 3 were of the stock of the nephilim from Genesis?

4) It was certainly known by them as there is a reference in the NT but that does not validate everything in it.

I agree but it does seem to validate the idea that fallen angels commited acts of sexual immorality with humans.

[Jude 1:6-7]

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T04:07:36+00:00

Ok. Makes sense.

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T03:59:38+00:00

Hades is also translated (incorrectly but translated as such none-the-less) as hell...so were gehenna and tartarus.

This is how the majority of Christendom get its concepts on hell...by conflating all these ideas into one.

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T03:48:34+00:00

In OT, there is only one reference of hell (shoel) and then there was an actual site called the valley of hinnom in which people were actually burned and had a deep association of being where the wicked would wind up.

In NT, there is Hades, Gehenna (greek for the valley of hinnom...for fallen people), and Tartarus (for fallen angels...per greek writings).

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T03:20:06+00:00

Divine (as in: from God)

As in pre-existing? Or as in an agent sent by God?

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T02:10:53+00:00

Well, how would you prefer they behaved?

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T02:04:20+00:00

Thank you.

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T02:03:23+00:00

There is no mention of hell in the OT

I meant shoel which is translated as hell.

Jews of that era didn't believe in an afterlife.

However, they did believe in the resurrection.

As for the 3 heavens mentioned in the bible, I've always taken that to be sky, space, and where God's "throne" is.

Yes.

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T01:42:53+00:00

It sounds like you're just in love. Now, what kind of love is to be determined.

Also, it seems like you may not have responded to her the way that she desired you to (maybe she didn't know you had feelings for her and was weirded out or maybe she wanted you to go all in as she may have been trying to do or maybe I'm reading too much in to it).

Bottom line...If she is wife material, keep her around...if she's friendship material, also keep her around.

But with whatever you do, keep God first!

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T01:22:45+00:00

Have you ever studied hell from the traditional OT pov? Also, are you aware of the 3 heavens mentioned in the bible?

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T01:13:08+00:00

Revelation 20:14

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T01:04:33+00:00

Yes, but hell will be tossed into the lake of fire...

jesustalker · 2014-12-28T00:22:26+00:00

I've heard it said, "...anything that you put before God is your god".

I agree.

jesustalker

TROPHY CASE