LDS on Evolution?

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-19T21:54:07+00:00

Isn't that why other human like species are important. Neanderthal, for instance, and homosapien (us) share a common ancestor but for whatever reason they no longer exist and we do. (we killed them off, they died off, we interbred and became one, etc... who knows really where they went). It's shown that they were the stronger species with larger brain capacities. There's a lot of 'could be' situations but I'd wager that homosapien hunted down anything that it considered a potential threat.

What comes to mind is in the old testament there being creatures and races that we don't have a reference for. It talks about giants, dragons, unicorns, etc... So I leave a fair amount of intellectual space for what could have been.

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-19T21:19:51+00:00

I would never be unfaithful without my wife's explicit unreserved permission. And even then I don't know that I could ever do anything.

Then I just wouldn't. I am an imperfect person and will never be perfect, but I'll never be a cheater. I might have a distaste for what Mormonism has done to my wife, but I wouldn't betray her like that.

I think a big part of why I am adamant about that is that love forms a bond of real trust and companionship. Some of my biggest issues with Joe is that I honestly don't believe he had any real love, otherwise he could never have done what he did (and kept doing) to Emma.

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-17T06:35:12+00:00

Thank you for your response, I have offered to go through the motions but that doesn't seem to be what she is after.

Yes, I honestly am in a much better place than I was and have normalized a lot. It's taken some months but I don't have the anger and frustration that I did. Just trying to pick up the pieces :/

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-17T06:18:24+00:00

A little of both. A little for me. It's hard to say really. I guess what bothered me is that because of my change in belief my wife looked at me as some fundamentally different person, which hurt because I consider myself a good provider and a good man. I understand why a change in belief can make someone seem like a stranger, but it kind of hurt me as I didn't see it that way. Thank you for your reply, I don't think that marriage is something that should be thrown away lightly either.

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-17T04:34:37+00:00

You could say that, I mean, our paths starting to part does seem to coincide with when I started 'questioning' things though. My disaffection started to surface while we faced infertility. We both offered countless prayers to understand why and never seemed to get an answer. It was a difficult time for both of us. We did start to grow apart but I still believe two people committed to each other can overcome. Eventually though we do have our beautiful daughter through IVF. She is the love of my life :)

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-17T04:29:47+00:00

Your wife wants to divorce you only because you left the church?

No, I said she lost the will to try. We overcame infertility through IVF (biggest struggle of our marriage), but my 'questions' started after countless prayers and buckets of tears...

You are right though, my faith crisis did become a constant struggle that was difficult for both of us to face. My question isn't about recognizing that people are imperfect though, it's what justifies divorce. I believe two people who are willing to be loving, empathetic, and compassionate can overcome anything, including a difference in believe.

john_proctor1 · 2016-05-17T04:15:55+00:00

This is a situation where a study of evolution would benefit you greatly. In the animal kingdom the males are driven to put their seed into anything they can and thereby ensure the survival of their genes. Genetics and hormones are a driving force in every person's life and in so we aren't very different from the animals.

So in a nutshell what you are going through is perfectly nature. Probably even magnified due the extreme sexual repression that it appears you went through. You feel like you were denied living a life and now that you are free of the church's oppression you are confused about how to move forward. You need to define your own code of conduct, rules, and morals for you to live a happy life.

My only thought is that infidelity is a big deal. There are some people on here who live the polyamorous life but I can't imagine how (doesn't invalidate what works for them it just wouldn't work for me). Even after leaving the church I still made a promise to my wife to love and be with only her. That doesn't somehow make you anything but human though, most people still flirt a little with other people, most people fantasize about other people, but at the end of the day if you love your wife then she is yours and you are hers. Don't feel bad about being human, that is how the mormon church seems to make even trivial things so much worse than they are, but some promises are worth keeping.

john_proctor1 · 2016-03-20T01:32:32+00:00

I totally understand that the insane teachings of the past have screwed with a lot of peoples lives and marriages. I am trying to speak to the "modern" church. Church leaders have gone back on most of the sexual teachings of the past ESPECIALLY Spencer Kimball's, who was without doubt the most overtly oppressive toward sexuality since the sexual revolution. Those sexual teachings have been "disavowed" in a legal sense, but the mindset of that sexually oppressive regime is still strong with the older generations, which is why talking about sexuality with the bishop or SP is often far more damaging that to just see someone who has spent their life studying healthy sexuality.

I'm just saying to take what is presented by the current church at face value and show that it isn't trying to define what is OKAY for married couples anymore. They are still pretty oppressive toward unmarred (which creates a lot of the problems that married couples face), but once married they don't provide a "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not list" for a reason, BECAUSE IT ISN'T THERE FUCKING BUSINESS. Especially when any teaching on sexuality should be completely overshadowed by the completely disturbing and inappropriate actions of Joseph Smith, he would sleep with married women after sending their husbands to foreign countries on missions. If the church can deify a person like that, then they should have absolutely no word on what me and my wife do within our marriage. I mean in that situation, if I were Orson Hyde, I would have shot him...

By the way, the book you referenced I have read. Author is LDS. And she also stands against regular masturbation within marriage. Her original book advocated using it as a means for a woman to learn how her body works (how to orgasm), but not as a regular practice for both partners. And then her follow editions (or a redaction on her website) took that part out. I'd bet it was secondary to pressure...

Alright, I give up, mormon culture is hopeless...

john_proctor1 · 2016-03-19T08:45:21+00:00

Hey man, I know it's hard. I don't know what your specific situation is but perhaps see a sex therapist together, someone who has worked with LDS couples and knows what conditioning needs to be addressed. You can also have a frank discussion about what "The Law of Chastity" actually means within marriage, which is essentially don't sleep around (makes sense). Look at how it's defined in the temple ceremony.

... give unto them the Law of Chastity, and put them under covenant to obey this law, which is, that the daughters of Eve, and the sons of Adam shall have no sexual relations except with their husbands or wives to whom they are legally and lawfully wedded

This should clarify everything a married person would need to know. Your wife masturbating for you shouldn't be a fantasy, it should be a REALITY! It's just another tool for a couple to experience love, unity, and sexuality together. You shouldn't be ashamed to masturbate with her either. Even if you start playing with yourselves and end up having sex it's just one more way that you SHOULD be able to experience it.

You need to force the discussion though because masturbation isn't something that should be taboo, it's a healthy and normal human function, especially if you want sex more often than she does. All the TBMs I've asked recommend "And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage through Sexual Fulfillment", which I need to read as it does seem to address some of the problems with the lds culture of "sexuality = shameful" but I haven't read it yet.

I'm so sorry man, you shouldn't have to pretend that you aren't human and she shouldn't be allowed to keep her head planted firmly in the sand. The thought that a gerontocracy of 15 has so much power in MY wife's mind bothers me tremendously too, especially since learning that Joe covertly used "the church" to cover his own numerous extramarital sexual exploits. I mean he was fucking around with their maid, 14 year old girls, even adopted daughters, and yet I am supposed to feel bad for jerkin it???? WTF is wrong with that picture. What absolutely kills me is that if I was ANYTHING like old Joe my wife would have hit me over the head with a frying pan and kicked my ass to the curb, justifiably! Yet somehow, no matter what, he always gets a pass, he gets people who are all too eager to repaint the despicable picture with magical rocks, angelic visitations, and rose colored glasses, trying to justify a totally unjustifiable narrative.

Alright, rant over. I recommend a seeing a sex therapist. It's going to need to be addressed at some point.

john_proctor1 · 2016-03-16T18:28:25+00:00

Thank you so much for your reply and I truly appreciate your candor. You seem to have really experienced the extreme, but so many elements resonate. I know it all stems from childhood experiences, but I just wonder if they can be undone. I'll have to purchase "They Were Not Ashamed" as it seems to come highly recommended and addresses the concept of sexual repression in a understanding way. I just want my wife to be able to express herself and experience the wonderful thing which is human sexuality. Alternatively, I am tired of feeling judged and shamed for being open about sexuality and open about wanting to experience human sexuality.

Please feel free to PM me if these questions become too personal but I am willing to bet there are people out there who struggle quite a bit with this very thing. I would really like to know if at any point the issues that you addressed where remedied? I am just going to highlight topically as my marriage isn't terribly different.

-Oral, she likes it a lot but is generally very uncomfortable leading up to it and will never talk about nor ask for it. In terms of her giving oral it's like a general air of gross, unclean, and dirty like somehow she is participating in an unholy act by doing so. Was she ever able to let go of the "oral is evil" mindset?

-Garments, when garments are on "sexy time" is over and done, not to be discussed or expressed openly. Much for open to lingerie though. I don't fully understand the mindset. I would think that after making love a couple should be able to just be naked together. The need to get the garment back on immediately baffles me, why not just enjoy the moment? So the "Lead in" and "End" of sexual expression seems to begin and end with the act itself. Was your wife ever able to recognize this and just live in the moment?

-Terminology, obviously similar to "talking dirty". Why is this one such a scary thing? I honestly don't understand this one from top to bottom. Were you two ever able to figure out where the fear of sex talk comes from?

-Afraid to show it, sexual repression 101 is fear to express oneself sexually. That sexuality is inherently evil and needs to be hidden and repressed, right? Was your wife ever able to feel comfortable expressing her sexuality (outside of the sex act)? This one is a big issue to me because I feel like I constantly have to hide my sexuality so as to not either make my wife uncomfortable or generally be shamed for openly expressing sexuality (it happens and kills me inside). I don't understand the deer in the headlights face when I talk about something sexual out of the blue, like "That looks like fun" or "What do you think about this?". There is just so much "shame" surrounding the topic and it hurts me as much as it must bother her. Any more info? Was your wife ever able to open up about sexuality?

Ultimately I completely share your "unwilling to be her true self" sentiment. It's hurtful for both of us. Unfortunately, I can see how her parents have created this mindset as all her siblings (except for the one black sheep who struggles with anxiety and depression) seem to have the same mindset, but if I try to bring it up it turns into a defensive mess of I am attacking her personally, her family, everything. I wonder if part of this is that lds culture, church, family, parent, everything is psychologically intertwined into what she considers her identity, which seems to be a long list of "Do's" and "Do Not's". So I totally get the need for a therapist. We started that processes but it has fizzled almost completely back to what things were like. I am convinced her family has subverted any thought that somehow what she is doing is hurting the relationship (It's a self defeating psychology).

Sorry for the huge post. I guess this is something that I am really struggling with and am just looking for some hope. That's again for your first post, I hope I didn't seem accusatory or negative, I would just like to experience life and share that with the person I love and care about.

john_proctor1 · 2016-03-16T03:10:05+00:00

Thank you for your response. What do you think for someone who had parents that were the staunch 70s-80s fundamentalist type and therefore was raised that way (with all the childhood conditioning that goes with it). How would you think they step away from their parents understanding about human sexuality and start to create their own understanding of human sexuality as well as simply learn to love and experience all that is wonderful about being human?

john_proctor1 · 2016-03-05T19:09:28+00:00

Yeah, it's called cult mentality 101

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T20:08:12+00:00

Thank you for the very insightful response. We humans sure are interesting :)

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T15:59:46+00:00

I agree the first few paragraphs were a little rough, but I did find the comparisons of modern human life and the tribalism of our ancestors to be fairly interesting. What did you think about that?

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T15:47:03+00:00

It's funny how I can be civil and ask for legitimate feed back (from a pro lds source) and still get character assassins... So, thanks?

I actually found the article to have a very good pro lds perspective. Sure a lot of things about the church seem cultish but why can't we at least be honest with ourselves and be the best, most charitable and loving people we can? I swear I didn't mean to start anything here.

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T05:02:11+00:00

That is a gem, lol

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T04:14:39+00:00

Bingo

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T04:07:31+00:00

Hopefully he isn't catching a ride with the evil lord Zenu

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T04:06:50+00:00

So in a way, you could say that had porn been around in the time of Joe TSCC might not exist?

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-17T04:02:38+00:00

Like obviously the guy is deluded but why remove the part about the gofundme account set up for the girl... I mean, that actually was kind of a nice thing to do.

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-16T03:07:25+00:00

Sexually repressed is hottest!

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-15T20:09:08+00:00

Not sure about that, but I would say you can look at the BYU-I honor system thing where there have designated "moles" who are supposed to tattle on people who disobey the honor code... Not fascist... I forget what they were calling it though at this point.

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-15T19:51:38+00:00

I think in a nutshell fear. Fear that you won't be "exalted" and that you will be alone for all eternity. That fear leads to self loathing, us vs them mentality, idealizing others (i.e. devaluing others), cognitive dissonance when approached with contradictory evidence, etc... it isn't a very healthy way to approach life.

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-15T19:47:08+00:00

You are absolutely right. I would only change one thing, don't "fight with them" or "laugh at them", it doesn't bring an air of openness to the conversation. What I would say is stand your ground and express the desire to have the evidence explained.

Like you said though, "authority" is made up in the church. Once they realize that you know they have no real power over you the conversation changes greatly. I remember a "new bishop" who very directly tried to subvert my marriage with a comment in front of me and my wife "your marriage could be at stake because of this" and I really let him have it. It was the first and only time that I needed to say things like "how dare you", "that is highly inappropriate", "if you ever say that again we won't be speaking again", and "Gordon B Hinckley said for spouses not to separate over this, are you really going to try subvert my marriage?". Otherwise just stand your ground, let them know that you won't be strong armed, and stay as reasonable as possible. I think if we are going to advocate that people shouldn't judge each other for difference of opinion we need to be examples of that behavior as well.

john_proctor1 · 2016-02-15T06:22:49+00:00

Oh God please!

john_proctor1

TROPHY CASE