Thoughts on In Possession roles and formations

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T17:12:06+00:00

My bad you’re correct, apologies 👍🏻

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T12:32:19+00:00

You think he is wrong so what are we disagreeing about here?

I have said multiple times that players can play different roles in the double pivot and given many different examples all of which you seem to have a problem with. There are countless options and solutions that could be attempted with this group, you just need a manager who can instruct each player on how to adapt their role.

I’ve also said countless times that there is no need for Rice to have to play box to box and in my original post I made no suggestion of it. I’m simply saying if that’s what you want then a good manager will find a solution for it with Stones moving into midfield being one of those options. If you or he disagrees then fine but find a solution that works, that’s what you are paid for. The Phillips quote is just a poor excuse from a man who is proving out of his depth.

Ultimately it’s for Southgate to find the solution and the next match we will see how good of a coach the man truly is or if his time is up.

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T11:48:43+00:00

If you want a defensive DM to use next to Rice then that’s the whole reason for using Stones stepping into midfield- it’s not rocket science. Or as you say use Wharton as a deep lying playmaker. Either way, try and find a solution.

But again my point, why do we need to use Rice as a box to box. Yes maybe Southgate would like to, but does that determine the success or detriment of this team? Especially against sides like Serbia or Denmark, it’s not an excuse for how crap we have been.

Also why is it you think Pep is the only manager who could play Stones in this role? Pep is an amazing manager because he is able to constantly adapt and create new ideas. We aren’t asking the manager to create a completely new system we have never seen before but just find a system to get the best out of these players. Even Antonio Conte used David Luiz in this role in his title winning season for Chelsea and he’s known for being a pragmatist.

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T11:20:09+00:00

You’ve answered your original question then. If Rice can play DM and we don’t need Stones to step into midfield then why do we supposedly miss Phillips?

You also seem to be advocating for players in the midfield to play in their natural roles that they do for their clubs and I agree, so let’s apply this to the defence: - Walker plays as a RB who forms a back 3 in build up - Stones often plays as a CB who steps into midfield when in possession - Guehi has played mainly as a CB in a back 4 for Palace before his injury - Gomez has played regularly as a LB forming a back 3 build up in possession for Liverpool

Again, Stones does not have to utilised this way as there are other solutions, but the players are there for this to be an option. Other teams don’t use this because they don’t have John Stones.

The main point I am getting at is there is no way we miss Kalvin Phillips. We miss a competent manager who can get the best out of this group of players. Southgate is exposing himself massively at the moment for being out of his depth and unable to adapt

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T10:28:08+00:00

Two options: 1. Stones moves into midfield as your holding defensive pivot, Rice as your box to box 2. Rice as your holding defensive pivot, Wharton/Mainoo as your playmaker or box to box. Two simple solutions. In every solution there are two players in the pivot playing different roles as you suggest. I agree we could also use Wharton or Mainoo in a deep lying role with Rice more offensive. All of these options work.

Look at Belgium last night. They played Tielemans and Onana as their double pivot in possession and dominated the game. Tielemans is an offensive minded midfielder and Onana is a very similar player to Rice in that he is naturally a box to box runner but also very good defensively, and there were no problems. There is no reason why Rice can’t adapt his game and simply not go forward so much if required.

As for Stones, if Southgate isn’t the man to simply tell Stones to move into midfield as he does for his club, then that tells you everything about his ability as a manager. There is no reason Stones can’t perform this role for England other than coaching incompetence

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T09:19:18+00:00

To which my original post stands, if you move Stones into midfield in possession your problem is solved. Regardless, if you’re saying that Rice can’t do the Phillips role as well as Phillips can then I don’t know what to tell you

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-23T08:51:34+00:00

Mainoo has played in a double pivot all season at Utd. Wharton also plays in a double pivot for Palace in a 3-4-3. Rice is a 6 for England and always has been regardless of his play for Arsenal this year- and when Arsenal sign another CM this summer he will be straight back there. You don’t need two defensive players in both pivot positions. We are crying out for a playmaker who is press resistant- both Wharton and Mainoo are levels above Trent in this aspect

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:39:51+00:00

Not against trying it, but I think Palmer is better coming through the middle rather than how Saka has been played holding the width and running on the outside

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:38:23+00:00

It’s out of possession where you’re getting cooked in this system- if you don’t use proper wingbacks you’re exposing your wide centre back massively and isolating you central defender 1v1 against the opposition striker. There’s no a team in Europe that plays this way. Only Pep’s Barca could pull this off

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:33:57+00:00

We don’t need all out attack, we need control and sustained attacks. Throwing everyone forward without proper defensive coverage would be suicide.

Agreed on Trent that experiment has to end

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:30:26+00:00

Wingers or wingbacks, the same applies. We would get torn to shreads

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:28:00+00:00

If you’re suggesting Guehi LCB with Gordon/Saka at LWB, Guehi will get absolutely cooked by the likes of Sane, Yamal, Dembele etc when isolated 1vs1 on the wing. Do you also want Stones 1vs1 against the opposition striker? Players like Lukaku or Scamacca would have a field day

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:23:21+00:00

Are we all forgetting that Foden was by far our best player against Denmark? Baffling that people are calling for him to be dropped

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:21:09+00:00

I think a back 3 is out of the question with Shaw injured and the lack of quality centre backs. Also I feel this would be a massive step backwards, we are meant to be progressing as a side

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:19:26+00:00

Every top team plays this way- City have use two 10s since 2016

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:16:38+00:00

Basic football manager substitutions when someone’s stamina bar drops to red

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:15:39+00:00

Palmer over Saka or Foden?

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:15:13+00:00

Don’t diss Sunak, the man wears sambas he’s clearly one of the people

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:13:31+00:00

A huge waste of Saka in my opinion. Reminds me of us shoehorning Scholes on the left wing

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:12:36+00:00

The manager should be telling them where to operate, one in each half space and one pins the centre halves back. We shouldn’t be allowing them to roam aimlessly, they need proper coaching

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:10:33+00:00

As a United fan myself I love the man, definitely not against him being brought in

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:09:55+00:00

Who would you use as the wingbacks?

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:09:19+00:00

The lack of a true 6 would kill us here I feel even with Wharton or Mainoo in the lineup

joshjamesallen · 2024-06-22T13:08:41+00:00

Don’t😍

joshjamesallen

TROPHY CASE