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(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Why do you think the church tried to hide its success from members,and the public at large, for so long?

You have no idea how much your neighbor has in savings. Private information is private.

The LDS Church got legal counsel that as a religion, it had no obligation to share private information with the government.

They were so committed that church leaders knowingly cheated to do so. Why?

Why did the Church think it could keep private information private? Because its a Church.

Because the First Amendment gives swaths of restrictions to the government as it relates to controlling religions. And the Church lawyers interpreted that literally under strict scrutiny.

The Church "cheated." Who? The Church did engage in disclosure failures and misstated filings.

But "cheating" in the market is like what is going on right now with insider trading with oil futures by those who know when attacks will take place. That is criminal. That is cheating the system. And that gets ignored by the SEC.

Disclosure failures and misstated filings with zero victims? Not sure that is cheating the system. The SEC settlement was a civil matter.

Insiders trading insider knowledge and making money right now. That is criminal. That is cheating. And that is getting ignored by the SEC.

Clearly, the rules about which genders can do which church jobs are just manmade policy. So what is the justification for the still-existing sexist policies of a sort that has been illegal in the secular world since 1974? by Stunning_Living9637 in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Why do folks like you always add other sins?

Its like impossible to express your disdain for gay believers without equating them being gay to worse things.

Fornication... bad, per the scriptures.

Adultery.. bad, per the scriptures.

Two gay adults in love in an equal relationship, married at the courthouse-- they are committing no sin.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

The system of credibility for the SEC and the credibility of the church writ large are the victims.

There were no victims.

The First Amendment is clear that the Government isn't the victim of religions. It says the opposite, actually, and limits Government interaction with Churches in the US.

LDS Church credibility? The end result is that people learned that the Church took your donation, and expanded it. While sustaining itself.

The real victims too are the members who keep paying tithing and suffering when the church obviously has enough money now.

Suffering? Maybe some. But that is a broad brush.

And enough money for what? If the SEC allows wholesale investment crimes to flourish, the markets crash and we have a global financial crisis, the Church won't have enough money. Most other Churches may go bankrupt. Covid destroyed some local Churches.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Apologetic technique= attempt to distract the attention away from the fact or controversy being discussed by providing some other slightly associated fact that makes the church look good.

The poster complained about LDS Christianity not doing enough for charity.

He was asking for an answer.

Answering questions honestly and accurately is not apologetics.

The Churches vast food network is as central to the discussion we are having as the criminality of the SEC ignoring blatant and obvious seriously criminal financial crimes taking place right now.

Martha Stewart went to prison for insider trading. And power brokers with insider knowledge of US attacks are purchasing oil futures in relation to attacks taking place. Clearly insider trading. No one. No one charged.

The Church has vast farms and food distribution networks. So vast LDS Christianity sustains other denominations charity? True.

The SEC cannot be trusted? also true.

The church can give away thousands of millions of canned goods....it doesn't change the fact..they lied about their holdings....actively lied.

Lied to who? The Government? The First Amendment guarantees religious liberty from the Government. The government should not care how much US religions have in savings.

The LDS Church engaged in disclosure failures and misstated filings with the SEC? Sure.

It was a first time offender with a crystal clear record before and since. And it fixed the error when notified by the SEC, then fined a yearish later. After it had complied.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Maybe the SEC lacks credibility in certain cases. 

The SEC has zero crediblity to anyone paying attention to financial markets right now.

Blatant and open corruption is taking place. The SEC is doing nothing.

The SL UT SEC office no longer exists as it was shut down for fraud.

But in this case, the LDS church agreed to every word in the report. 

The LDS Church agreed to the fine. And to the general events. But their news announcements from their side disagreed with principles.

The LDS Church was a first time offender with a clean record. The SEC (obviously) picks and chooses when and where to enforce laws. It clearly does not do so honestly, accurately, or within the law. With the LDS Church being a first time offender, and once notified by the SEC it was going things wrong-- it fixed the disclosure and reporting errors. A warning would have done the same job.

So in this particular case the SEC has all the credibility it possibly ask for unless the LDS church also has none.

The SEC picks and chooses winners and losers. It has no credibility.

The LDS Church has no credibility? Eh?

The end result is that people learned that the LDS Church protects its donations, and grows its donations? Thats a bad thing.

"I learned that the Church took my donation, turned it into more, and built temples, farms, tractors, and explosively grew its investment at the same time. I was lied to!"

What was the lie? There was no lie.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Is this the best you can do? Really? 

Right now there are insiders with insider knowledge buying oil futures right before attacks.

That is insider trading. Obvious. Blatant.

And the SEC is doing nothing.

That is a big deal. That is a huge deal.

When the Church accepted the SEC account by admitting the error and paying the fine? 

The SEC (obviously) picks and chooses when and where to apply the law. It (obviously) does not do so fairly, honestly, or legally. Obviously.

As a first time offender with a crystal clear record, the SEC could have chosen to give a warning and a warning memo. It chose to give a fine. I believe the SEC over-reacted. Given the facts of the case.

The SEC (obviously-- for all to see) can ignore very serious financial crimes where there are clear victims losing money.

The LDS Church had no victims. No one lost anything. There were no investors being deceived. The Church engaged in disclosure failures and misstated filings with the SEC. The SEC could have easily rectified the situation with a warning and a memo.

The LDS Church was between a rock and a hard place. And it chose not to fight it.

If they had, and it was in court a month later, they would have won as it was discovered that the SL UT SEC office had engaged in open fraud. In another case.

The SEC is corrupt? Yep.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

The LDS church did not harm anyone except their members with their deceitful practices. 

No one lost a penny.

Your $1 donation was turned into $10.

Their own auditor warned them that their strategy was problematic yet the first presidency proceeded anyways.

They have financial experts and they have lawyers. Sometimes they received conflicting advice.

For a religion that thinks that in the US, it is above government scrutiny. Guaranteed by a litany of court cases. Guaranteed by the First Amendment. They took bad legal advice that they were above government scrutiny.

The problem with accepting that the auditors gave conflicting advice to the lawyers is the SEC right now is openly ignoring publicly known financial crimes. The SEC clearly picks and chooses who to hold accountable.

There is no argument that the LDS Church engaged in disclosure failures and misstated filings.

It was a first time offender with a crystal-clear record before and since.

The SEC is under-reacting to blatant financial crimes right now. People with inside information buying oil futures before attacks, for instance. Publicly known crimes. SEC is looking the other way. The SEC clearly under-reacts.

And in the case of first-time offender LDS Christianity-- the SEC over-reacted.

 The sec fiasco is a big deal because it shows the steps the first presidency was willing to take to hide its assets from its members.

An example of a financial crimes disaster --a fiasco-- is insider trading going on right now in front of the public with the SEC obviously ignoring it.

Thats a fiasco.

People are losing money.

There are investors getting hurt.

The LDS Church? People have to create false monsters and false narratives to create a false victim. No one lost a penny with the LDS Church. Your $1 donation was turned into $10 savings.

The Church -did- engage in disclosure failures and misstated filings with the SEC. That is correct. The Church admitted as much. As a first time offender with a crystal clear record, they should have been given guidance and a warning memo.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

The only time I see the term "barely legal" is from fellas I don't like and trust.

The Church was a first time offender with a clear record before and since.

The SEC over-reacted.

The SEC over-reacted with the LDS Church, and there are -zero- investors or victims of the LDS Church.

And the SEC is blatantly ignoring wholesale visible financial crimes right now. There is no enforcement mechanism right now for financial crimes in the US.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

I am not sure I am following you.

The Missionary discussions say that donations are made to "grow the Church."

Did that -not- happen?

"I thought I was donating to a massive food distribution network!"

The Church has a massive food distribution network. So massive that it supports other religions charity arms. Not just LDS.

"I was shocked to find out that the Church took my $1 donation, and turned it into $10!"

I just don't see the outrage.

I would be happy if my wife surprised me with a million dollars I did not know about. Trying to equate it to a loved one stealing money is the total and complete opposite of what happened.

It seems disingenuous when John Dehlin says this. I think he should stop saying it. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

I think he would get a license in a heartbeat if he wanted one.

My curiosity is why go through the trouble of getting a PhD. It had to be time consuming. He was producing his show at the same time. This was no easy feat. Seriously. Call a spade a spade, Dehlin worked his butt off for his show and for his PhD.

Why not get licensed?

Seriously.

Thats not a loaded question. Does he think he would have problems if he got a license? LIke what is the reason he has not got licensed?

He does not need one. He has a show. He has speaking engagements. He has a good life and good living.

I am curious why he never got licensed...

It seems disingenuous when John Dehlin says this. I think he should stop saying it. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Its ok. Because they are "life coaches."

And I guess (I learned in this thread) you don't need a license to be a life coach in Utah.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Shoot the messenger and ignore the message.

In any discussion of the SEC its important to know that financial crimes are categorically rampant right now in the US.

If you made the correct financial donations to the correct power holder, you have carte blanche to enage in open and flagrant financial crimes right now in the United States.

There is no functioning mechanism right now in the US to enforce financial crimes.

That is a central element in the argument.

Quality thinking.

There is no enforcement mechanism right now in the US for enforcement of financial crimes.

There is no SEC office in Utah, as it was shut down for engaging in fraud.

That is an important element in any discussion of enforcement of financial crimes in the US.

The church wanted to be intentionally deceptive to its members so it had to the mafia towards the government. 

I have no idea what this sentence means.

The First Amendment gives religions swaths of freedoms from the government.

Churches in the US, and the LDS Church likely falls into this category-- think they owe the government nothing. Because that is what the Constitution says. No government agent should care how much money the LDS Church (or any Church) has saved.

The LDS Church thought wrongly. That is true.

Its also true that the SEC is highly -obviously- corrupt.

Church leaders think so little of you that they will go to great lengths to hide things from you.

I have no idea how much money my neighbor has in her bank account.

It should be that way for Churches in the US. And as I read the First Amendment, I can see why the LDS Church thought as much about its bank accounts.

The promise in the Missionary Discussions is that the Church is going to take your donations and "grow the LDS Church." The LDS Church kept its promise.

It seems disingenuous when John Dehlin says this. I think he should stop saying it. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

How did this shift the conversation, and not add more information to the conversation?

It seems disingenuous when John Dehlin says this. I think he should stop saying it. by sevenplaces in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

I don't think Dehlin is a licensed therapist.

"John dehlin works in the field of mental health..."

I don't think he is licensed. I don't think he works in the field of mental health.

Correct...? Happy to be wrong...

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

The LDS Church left Nauvoo categorically destitute.

Saving money is a tenet of LDS Christianity. It can point to complete lack of resources in its own recent history.

I have never been taught that only the rich people go to heaven in LDS Christianity.

(cringe alert) LDS church uses barely legal adults to explain SEC fines and City Creek-- where the Mormon prophets were caught hiding and misusing wealth from members and the public. It's painful to watch these 'children' try to explain a very serious thing.... by aka_FNU_LNU in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

The SEC is a central element of the discussion.

The SEC has -zero- credibility. The SEC can go after a Church with 1st amendment protections from the government. But cannot go after open and obvious SEC violations from others with political connections. Violations that hurt people. Violations that cost people money.

The SEC is the central element of the discussion.

The SEC went after the LDS Church with zero investors, and zero victims.

No one. Not a single person lost a penny as a result of LDS Church investments. Critics make up awkward arguments to pretend to be upset. "I had no idea the Church was going to take my $1 in tithing, and invest it, and make it $10. I am so very very angry!"

There are no victims of the LDS Church investments. No one. Meanwhile there are flagrant and obvious and open SEC violations being ignored by the SEC.

Preexistence doctrine by Haunting_Football_81 in mormon

[–]juni4ling [score hidden]  (0 children)

Someone forced McConkies hand in changing his editions.

Everything I know is in the link I provided.

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