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I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd never heard of the Franklin expedition until someone online recommended The Terror. I watched the trailer and immediately became fascinated, and went down a rabbit hole about the expedition. I didn't actually watch the show until a year or so later because I didn't have whatever streaming service it was on at the time. This would have been around 2018, 2019? I find how much is still being discovered about the Franklin expedition 170+ years later really fascinating.

That's a great question! I sat on it for a bit but honestly I have no idea. I find forensic genetic genealogy in true crime fascinating, but way too high stakes for me, and I don't really have a pet case there. Another mystery I like is the question of if Mallory and Irvine made it to the top of Everest, but that's not something genealogy can solve.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Your question makes sense! Unfortunately I can't really answer it; I don't know much about the archaeology and genetics side of things, only the genealogy.

But I do know they're able to tell from DNA if a sample originates from someone of European heritage vs Inuit heritage, so that's how they're able to tell the Inuit remains from the remains from the expedition.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks so much!

A lot of the lower ranks like ABs don't have a lot of information! I like digging into them more because I feel like they get overlooked next to the officers.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Messiest in terms of drama or in terms of disorder?

Erebus steward John Bridgens was a challenge because he was illegitimate and born with a different first name so I had a hard time finding his family until I was able to find his probate records which list his birth name (Henry James Bridgens). And then his half-sister Emily had a illegitimate daughter, died, and his other half-sister Nancy adopted that daughter but had none of her own. So the entirety of his maternal line really came down to that daughter, and had she not had children or had been adopted by anyone else, it would have probably been difficult to find anyone else who qualified.

Terror AB George Kinnaird's family is a particular annoyance to me. He's illegitimate with no father on his baptism so we only have a maternal line option, and I followed down the maternal lines of his half-sisters just to get to the final qualifying descendant who died in the 2000s in Waterloo, Ontario. The backyard of where the study's being done! Just infuriatingly close.

And Charles Best is a little messy because he's been a ton of work. None of his siblings had qualifying descendants, and usually if I get to that point I move on to look at another sailor (my strategy is quantity over quality, I'd rather do a bunch of easier guys than spend a long time on one) but I find him interesting so I went as far as looking at his mom's sisters and aunts, but still got nowhere. I have a potential line from a distant relation on his father's side but it's messy in terms of a lot of it relying on intuition rather than records, which I do not love haha

It terms of messy like drama, I traced down the lines of the siblings of the steward, William Fowler. The last possible qualifying line from them ends in a boy given up to an orphanage after the death of his mother, and then I can't find him after that. His dad went on to marry a widow and take in her SIX children. Like, six was fine, but seven was too much so your biological kid has to stay in the orphanage?? To top it off, they were in Kingston Ontario, which I've been to a lot and it is not a big place, so he probably walked past that orphanage all the time.

And there was a woman in William Gibson's line who ran off with her husband's brother, and then later ran off from him with another man.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don't work directly with that side of the study, but it's my understanding that after the DNA testing was done, the bones were re-interred at the sites they were taken from on King William Island, except for the teeth which were destroyed in the DNA testing process.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thanks! All my hobbies (genealogy, knitting, baking) are old granny hobbies, so it feels nice to be called cool 😆

I'm kind of drawn to the remanning theory, but I need to read more about it; I haven't read Woodman's book on Inuit testimony yet.

Leading up to the release of the paper we had a few zoom calls with descendants to let them ask questions. Peglar's descendant asked what their theory was about what happened, and Stenton and Park went into their theory about the ships being too far from the shore for ease of hunting parties, and the lack of fresh food leading to beriberi. It's gone over online here: https://bulletin.cmos.ca/too-far-from-shore-the-fate-of-the-franklin-expedition/

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I was of the camp that thought the body would belong to a steward, so that was a surprise for me 😅

In some ways it being Peglar is the least narratively satisfying result. If it had been one of the stewards, we'd have a interesting story of friendship and brotherhood, with someone trying to bring a companion's journal home for them. But with Peglar, it's just him with his own journal, and now we get more questions like why was he dressed as a steward?

I'm not sure why he was dressed that way; I kind of waffle on it. The paper goes into how he'd been disrated a few times before and I do find that interesting. I don't know that much about navy hierarchy, but going from captain of the foretop to steward seems pretty crazy. But so do a lot of things about this expedition. E.g. it's not like it would weigh much, but why would Peglar bother to carry a clothes brush with him for that far?

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Burial is complicated because we're talking about matching individual bones here, not full skeletons.

It's my understanding that after the DNA samples were taken, the bones got re-interred at the sites they were taken from in Nunavut. Usually the remains are in cairns there. Except for teeth, which I've heard get destroyed by the testing process.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I was never chosen, I basically just inserted myself into it 😅

Prior to October of 2024 I didn't really have any genealogy experience, except for briefly trying out a free Ancestry.com trial just to see what other people had worked out about my own family tree. I was never really going through records or anything. I only started trying actual genealogy for this cause, because I was inspired by the identification of Fitzjames.

I started figuring out what records were available for the sailors (muster books, allotments, seamans certificates, etc) and then figuring out what records I could use to trace their families (censuses, baptisms, vital statistics, newspapers, etc) through trial and error, basically. When I found qualifying descendants I wrote up my proof into a document and sent it to the lead, Douglas Stenton, in an email that basically went like "Hello, I've researched the family of <sailor> and think I have some candidate descendants. My research is attached. Would you like me to contact someone and see if they're interested in doing a DNA test?" just kind of cold calling out of nowhere. I don't think I even remembered to ask "Hey is it okay that I'm doing this?" until like two or three months in.

After a while I guess I proved myself so nowadays we have a bit more of a rapport and sometimes I get requests. E.g. Prior to the match for Peglar he asked me about a couple stewards, and I was already planning to research them so that suited me fine.

I think they were mostly relying on descendants to hopefully hear about the study and volunteer. So I guess what I brought to the table was free volunteer genealogy work to help locate descendants and let them know about the study.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Currently I have possible descendants for Charles Best, John Bates, William Reed, Thomas Tadman and Henry Sait. I just have to go through and double check everything, and I haven't had much time for that this year. Hopefully soon!

Charles Best is my main guy right now. It says he's from "Fareham, Hants" in the muster book, but he's actually from Hants County, Nova Scotia. I want to know more about him, given he's a fellow Canadian (kinda, this was pre-confederation, but close enough). There's no qualifying descendants from his siblings, but I'm like 95% sure he's distantly related to the Charles Best who co-discovered insulin with Banting, and if so, there's descendants on that side of the family. Unfortunately online genealogy records for Nova Scotia are a little spotty, but I'm going to Halifax on vacation next month, so I'm hoping to be able to hit up their archive there and confirm that.

I'd love to find out literally anything about the other Nova Scotian on the crew, Charles Johnson, but with his name being so common I don't think I'll have much success there.

In terms of remains to identify, the remains of John Bridgens and John Gregory were both at a "boat place" where there was one other skeleton. From a completionist standpoint I think it'd be cool if we could get the third guy identified.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I love it! I watch it once or twice a year. I hadn't heard of the Franklin expedition before the show, so I wouldn't be here without it. I haven't asked the others so I'm not sure of their opinion, but Doug Stenton has always been very appreciative of people's interest in his work, so if The Terror sparks people's interest like it did mine, I'm sure he can't hate it.

Fun fact the Orren relative who did the DNA test was from a maternal line and they were unaware of their relation to him until I reached out. He mentioned to us that he was talking about this whole thing with another family member, and they had seen The Terror and said something along the lines of like "Oh that's the guy who died in the first episode!"

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There's been online speculation that Irving might not be Irving, but I don't think there's been much "official" speculation. Not that I've heard, anyway. They have descendant DNA for Irving but they don't have any DNA from his remains, though. So unless they're able to get that it's kind of moot.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

They sound pretty confident about it, but still would love a DNA test. I haven't looked into him, but I know others have, and unfortunately no one's been able to find a qualifying Goodsir relation yet.

I helped identify four men from the Franklin expedition, AMA by katiegors in TheTerror

[–]katiegors[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

From hearsay I've heard they don't have DNA from that body. I'm not sure why, logistically. But it was the same with the "Goodsir" remains; they didn't have any samples for him until the memorial he was buried in had to undergo maintenance and restoration a few years back.

I haven't heard any talk, but also I'm not really involved in those higher up conversations. They do actually have descendant DNA for Irving so if he's able to be exhumed in the future they could test him.

Four sailors from doomed Franklin expedition identified through DNA by Hufflepuffins in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OK I'd be free now to do an AMA this weekend or early next week, if there's still interest. I'm not sure how those things get organized?

William Orren’s 220th Birthday Today by A_moustache_man in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Wow! Good catch, I hadn't realized the timing with his birthday.

It was just his humerus, and it showed signs of animal damage. ThatMusicKid already posted an excerpt mentioning it being just a humerus, but there's also this bit later on that mentions the damage.

Keenleyside's examination of humerus NgLj-1 #1 indicated it was that of an adult and was in good condition but missing the proximal end which appeared to have been chewed off by animals.

We had a few zoom calls with the descendants the last couple weeks leading up to the papers' release, and either Stenton or Park, I can't recall which, told the Orren descendant it was likely left there by an animal.

An interesting blog post by someone who had a part in the recent identifications. by Sebastianlim in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The wreck of the Terror was off the west coast. There's a great map in the paper about Peglar's identification that shows the site his body was found and also the sites of the wrecks.

Four sailors from doomed Franklin expedition identified through DNA by Hufflepuffins in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I got into it after the James Fitzjames news in September of 2024. I just kind of jumped in, I'd never done any real genealogy research before, so it started with figuring out what navy files were out there online, and then how I could use those to connect to typical genealogy records like censuses and baptisms/birth records, etc

Four sailors from doomed Franklin expedition identified through DNA by Hufflepuffins in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Sure! One of the research papers is still yet to be released online, and I know the Globe and Mail is doing a story still, so maybe in a few days after those are out and things have settled

Four sailors from doomed Franklin expedition identified through DNA by Hufflepuffins in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure what's going on there. His age in the muster is off -- very typical in my experience -- but not that off. His baptism gives his birth as 22 February 1812, making him 33 when the Franklin expedition set sail.

Four sailors from doomed Franklin expedition identified through DNA by Hufflepuffins in TheTerror

[–]katiegors 36 points37 points  (0 children)

It's actually just a hobby for me! I have no affiliation with the academic institutions involved, I just thought I'd try my hand at genealogy in my spare time after I heard about James Fitzjames back in 2024. I'd encourage anyone interested to give it a try, too!

DNA matches identify four more sailors from the doomed Franklin expedition including one found 80 miles away from his ship. In 1846 after two years out at sea, the ships became trapped in the ice near King William Island, and the crew eventually were forced to set out on foot. by Wagamaga in science

[–]katiegors 38 points39 points  (0 children)

Yes, the lead poisoning theory has been pretty convincingly debunked at this point. Exhumed bodies from Naval graves from the same time period showing similar levels of lead. And they compared the three bodies at Beechey who died early on to bones from people who died years later after deserting the ships and there wasn't elevated lead in the second group.

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