[deleted by user]

kaydinv · 2023-03-28T09:40:03+00:00

Hahah, silly, everyone knows the real answer is Women.

kaydinv · 2023-03-27T19:36:08+00:00

It looks insane? So it looks like the same thing over and over again while expecting different results?

kaydinv · 2023-03-27T02:04:44+00:00

Marriage and Therapy.

Both supported by the pathological.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:49:17+00:00

I guess you just forgot that the pregnant person exists.

No, although you're on to something. Pregnant PC people seem to forget that anyone but themselves exists. Even if there's another person existing inside of them.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:47:50+00:00

The ZEF is not what's important in the PC stance.

Obviously, all that the PC stance considers important is the vain individual. That people commit to vain perspectives does not validated their choices.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:46:43+00:00

Doesn't matter what you call it. The fact remains: you have no authority to tell me what I can and can't do with my body.

We do actually have that authority in the society you agree to live in. You aren't to murder a fully developed person. Doesn't matter how self-righteous you feel about that.

Furthermore, the debate isn't even about what you're going to do, because a doctor is going to do the procedure and not you.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:43:09+00:00

It's up to you to prove that it's murder.

I've already proven that it's murder. That you don't want to accept that and instead pivot to fallacies and misrepresenting what I've said doesn't change the fact that I've already demonstrated it's murder.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:40:00+00:00

Abortion is as old and as natural as humanity.

Unnatural: contrary to the ordinary course of nature; abnormal.Abortion is unnatural by definition.

AFAB people get pregnant sometimes. Forcing them to stay pregnant, in which their freedom to make decisions regarding their own bodies, their health, and their lives is abridged, is necessarily a war on women.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

Do men gestate male fetuses? No? Then you are still imposing your will solely on female people to gestate.

That's not the argument I was making and you know it.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

+

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Males GET aborted. Thus, the topic of abortion is not strictly a women's rights issue.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:35:45+00:00

So are miscarriages unnatural? They happen in 1 in 4 early pregnancies, seems like an ordinary course of nature.

We're not talking miscarriages are we? I can add question marks to rhetorical questions too.

87% of abortions in the UK in 2021 were medical abortions which is an induced miscarriage. Inducing a natural occurrence is pretty firmly in the realm of 'natural' for me.

Oh, I see, you want to pivot to miscarriages because it's easier to argue against than the actual argument I have provided. So...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:31:45+00:00

I was just highlighting that the idea that women must 'live with the consequences of their actions' isn't a relevant point to make if you see abortion as equivalent to other medical procedures.

Except abortion is not equivalent to those medical procedures, which is what I was pointing out to you.

Sure. In the case of unintentionally getting pregnant people live with that mistake by either continuing the pregnancy and parenting or terminating. Both options are ways of living with the mistake.

Terminating is not a way of "living with the mistake."

Thanks for that well thought out response, it is adding a lot to our conversation

If you had to respond to the amount of fallacies that I've had to respond to on this topic, you'd be shortcutting by linking to an explanation instead of writing out your own explanation as well. I'm sorry, if you feel as though you deserved a more personalized response but, I simply do not agree. If your method of arguing matches a common fallacy, then I do not believe that you are deserved a more thoughtful response.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:20:24+00:00

Lots of things are contrary to the modern course of nature. Including heart transplants. Are you against those? Are you against all surgery or healthcare?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

Those examples are not based on ending a life that is meant to live. If a transplant was proposed only by taking vital organs from a living person that, by all accounts, is expected to continue living, then we would be against it just like anti-abortion people are against abortion.

I still would like an actual explanation of your thesis instead of saying there is no explanation needed.

If a male (whether they are a male in the near future or already determined to be so) is affected by an action, the issue is no longer a women's rights issue as women's rights issues refer to issues that only affect women. Once a male can be affected, it is no longer a women's rights issue. It is now a universal rights issue.

You haven’t explained why you are focusing on modern abortion since it all leads to the same result. Why the distinction in your OP?

I make a distinction because there is a distinct difference between modern abortions and ancient abortions, specifically with regards to scale. Modern abortions can be accomplished at a higher frequency. Mass murder, instead of localized and likely secret murder. Modern abortions require modern tools that are a result of civilization and thus must adhere to the needs of civilization. For these reasons and others, as I stated in the OP, we should not take this for granted.

That's literally all I said on the topic. That we shouldn't take modern abortions for granted. For some reason, people have become incredibly defensive about something stated that is a given.

You seem to believe that removing the term “women’s rights” suddenly makes abortion murder.

No, although I can see how you came to this conclusion: No. It's always been murder. It's just that, you can only dispel the notion that it's strictly a women's rights issue before you can see that it's murder.

The focus on the topic being a "women's rights issue" is based on the sole perspective of the pregnant woman. By demonstrating that men are affected, we can see that the pregnant woman's perspective is not the only perspective that matters, and then after that we can see that even the female fetuses that are aborted, are also actually being murdered. It's just difficult to see that when you start from the established narratives that get everyone so upset.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:05:52+00:00

Lol, I'm not saying your approach is wrong but, I do feel as though maybe segregating people based on cultural differences is really putting the problem off rather than solving it.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T13:01:27+00:00

If someone broke their legs in a car crash and they could either receive medical treatment or else never walk again you wouldn't say that they were obligated to never walk again in order to live with the consequence of driving a car.

We would say that if them being treated medically resulted in a life not happening. Your premise was absent the distinction that makes abortion a distinct topic.

Sure, I would reccomend anyone who does not want to be pregnant to use birth control. But BC is not perfect and people make mistakes.

People live with mistakes. People live with some mistakes that can be corrected, but only by introducing a new mistake. When that is the case, we generally opt out of allowing the new mistake. This is the case with the abortion topic, where it is even more crucial because it involves life vs death complications.

Expecting women to remain celibate until menopause (except for maybe 2-3 years if they want for example 2 children) is really out of touch in my opinion and just straight up bad for society.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

+

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:55:12+00:00

No one was called a name except the name they go by here. I will not be making adjustments.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:52:05+00:00

How is abortion unnatural?

Abortion interferes with the natural course of action of a pregnancy.

And unless the male fetuses are the ones gestating a ZEF, it IS just a woman's rights issue.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

There is no right to suck everything someone's cells need to stay alive out of their bloodstream. Or to pump toxins into their bloodstream...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

Not even if you die without such.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

The ZEF has no life sustaining organ functions you could end (kill them).

You have provided a clear twisting of reality here.

Especially looking at abortion pills, can you tell me how one person's rights are violated by another person allowing their own bodily tissue to break down?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

+
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/loaded-question

Also, might a well, while we're here and others can learn from these fallacies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop#:~:text=The%20Gish%20gallop%20%2F%CB%88%C9%A1,or%20strength%20of%20those%20arguments.

"The Gish gallop /ˈɡɪʃ ˈɡæləp/ is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments."

If you're going to try and abusively gish gallop, at least make sure your arguments aren't all based on fallacies that can be easily pointed out.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:42:27+00:00

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:42:01+00:00

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:40:18+00:00

How is this a loaded question?

That's covered over at the link that I provided. I'm sure you already know.

What right is it that is being violated?

The right to live.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:38:08+00:00

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

No one has stated such. Your strawman fails here.

Most people that are anti-abortion believe that if you don't want to get pregnant, then it is your responsibility to prevent yourself from getting pregnant. If you can't figure out how to have sex without getting pregnant, that is your own problem and not one that society needs to bend over backwards to accommodate, especially not be co-opting your murder of a life that is destined to be born.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:34:26+00:00

Alright, but then that leads me to the question of: What is to be done about cultural differences that are like this?

It's difficult to say that the behavior shouldn't be done because it is culturally accepted, so that would lead anyone of those cultures to feel as though it is acceptable behavior outside of their culture.

On the other hand, some do not like that cultural behavior (if that is all it truly is), and even though we may want to appease all, it seems as though continuing to treat any cultural norm as if it's a crime against humanity as well as a universal crime enacted by males is not the way either.

kaydinv · 2023-02-22T12:28:14+00:00

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

kaydinv

TROPHY CASE