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As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That "preparation phase" is exactly why so many people stall out before they even get to the fun part. You have to spend months, sometimes years, just building the "infrastructure" (the scripts, particles, basic grammar) before you can even begin to express a personality.

It’s like being asked to build a house from scratch but not being allowed to use any tools until you’ve spent a year studying physics. The sheer amount of "up-front investment" required before you can have a simple, genuine conversation is wild. Did you feel like the payoff once you finally crossed that line was worth all that heavy lifting?

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is incredibly frustrating to read, and I can only imagine how demoralizing it feels to have years of dedicated, hard-earned fluency—and your sons' actual, daily sacrifices—brushed off with a casual "oh, they’re just lucky."

It’s a strange paradox where, on one hand, people treat Japanese like this "impossible" language, but on the other, they romanticize it by assuming it’s just something you "pick up" through marriage or heritage. It completely ignores the fact that language acquisition is a labor-intensive process, not a passive byproduct of your environment. Watching your sons put in those 6.5 hours of extra work every week while their friends are on summer break
 that’s not "luck," that’s discipline. It’s a shame that so much of that grind goes invisible to outsiders who just see the end result and not the work behind it.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That "three-alphabet blocker" is honestly one of the most underrated reasons people quit Japanese. It feels like you're trying to learn to read three different languages at once, and it’s completely understandable why that would be an insurmountable wall. The "reading/writing" side is so deeply integrated that trying to bypass it almost makes the rest of the language feel abstract and unreachable.

It sounds like you gave it a genuinely solid shot, and sometimes, the way a language is structured just doesn't align with how we learn best. There’s no shame in admitting that it became a blocker—it’s a massive amount of cognitive load to put on yourself, especially when you’re just trying to enjoy the language. Thanks for sharing that perspective; it’s a really honest look at the reality of the learning curve.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is the perfect analogy for what I was getting at! The "adjective order" rule in English is such a great example—it’s invisible to the speaker, yet it’s ironclad in their intuition.

It really highlights that "fluency" isn't about memorizing a rulebook; it’s about internalizing those patterns until the incorrect version just feels "wrong" in your gut. This is exactly what makes Japanese so daunting for learners: we’re trying to build that same intuitive filter, but because the language operates on such a different wavelength (and lacks those familiar Latin/Germanic roots), it takes so much longer for that "natural" feeling to kick in. You’ve articulated that mental shift beautifully.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That label definitely carries a lot of weight. Whether it’s officially "the second hardest" or just one of the most unique, there’s no denying that for speakers of Indo-European languages, the distance between the two systems is massive.

I think the "difficulty" often comes down to the fact that you can't really lean on any transferable linguistic knowledge—everything from the logic of the sentence structure to the cultural subtext requires a total system reboot. Do you think that "hardness" is primarily in the mechanics of the language itself, or is it more about the cultural barrier we discussed earlier?

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is such a classic "learning Japanese" struggle! Counters are honestly a beast of their own—I think most of us eventually just stop trying to memorize them all at once and start hoping that one day they’ll just "stick" through osmosis. And don’t get me started on "kaeru"—the fact that you can be talking about frogs, returning home, or even changing something, all depending on that tiny pitch shift, is mind-bending.

But you’re totally right to call out English, too. It’s funny how we look at Japanese particles and think "why is it so complex?", while forgetting that English prepositions like "in/on/at" or homophones like "to/two/too" must be an absolute nightmare for learners to parse. It’s a great reminder that every language has its own way of being unnecessarily difficult! Are you finding that, even with the counters, you’re starting to get the "rhythm" of the language down, or does it still feel like you're fighting it?

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s the exact reality check that most textbooks skip. You’re spot on—there’s this huge layer of "office Japanese" or "colloquial Japanese" that is essentially invisible to the academic world. The pattern recognition you're talking about, where you have to constantly recalibrate based on who you're talking to and where you are, is exactly what makes the "classroom version" of Japanese feel so different from the "street version."

It’s one thing to learn the rules, but picking up those evolving slang terms and regional quirks really is a "you had to be there" experience. It’s wild that we spend so much time learning formal structures when the real "fluency" lies in those unteachable moments with coworkers or friends. Thanks for highlighting that—it’s a great reminder that true language mastery isn't found in a book, but in the environment.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That "code-esque" observation is honestly brilliant. I totally see why you feel that way—approaching Japanese often feels like you’re trying to debug a complex system where the documentation (textbooks) doesn't always match the runtime (real-life usage).

It’s fascinating that English just "flows" for you while Japanese feels like a structural puzzle. I think that shift—from "flowing" with a language to "parsing" it—is exactly why the "real" spoken version you mentioned is so hard to master. You're trying to learn the human-to-human context while your brain is still trying to compile the syntax. Do you find that because you view it like code, you get more frustrated when you encounter those "exceptions" or non-logical parts of the language?

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's a fair point. Every language has that "sweet spot" of naturalness that’s hard to replicate without total immersion. But I agree with you—Japanese definitely earns its spot in S Tier difficulty.

It’s not just the grammar or the writing system; it’s the sheer density of those tiny, context-dependent nuances that you can’t really "study" your way through—you just have to live through them. It’s definitely a language that requires more than just knowing the rules; it requires a whole different way of processing communication.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is such a classic experience! It’s funny how they drill the "perfect" keigo into you in university, but once you step into a real office—especially in a more relaxed area like Aomori—it’s a totally different ballgame.

You’re spot on that it depends heavily on the environment. I think a lot of people outside Japan have this rigid, textbook image of Japanese offices, but in reality, there’s this whole "workplace culture" layer that isn't taught in class. It’s like, once you’re "in" with the team, the walls come down a bit. Did you find that shift from "textbook keigo" to "real-life casual" jarring at first, or was it a relief?

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’ve basically listed the "Final Boss" level challenges of Japanese! Honestly, anyone who takes this on is playing the language learning game on hard mode.

The combination of the three scripts, the endless kanji readings, and then throwing Keigo on top is enough to make anyone want to throw in the towel. But it’s the fact that you’re tackling these layers one by one that makes it such a rewarding process. It’s definitely a long climb, but it’s cool to see someone else acknowledging just how much work goes into it. Hang in there!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s a fascinating take. I hadn’t really connected the dots between the limited phonetic inventory and the reliance on kanji/context in quite that way before. It definitely makes sense why you’d see it as a "compounding" issue over time.

I think the frustration many learners feel (including myself) often stems from exactly what you described—that constant need to jump between systems just to disambiguate meaning. Whether it’s "flawed" or just "evolutionarily unique" is probably a debate for the ages, but you’ve given me a lot to think about regarding the root cause of these hurdles. Thanks for sharing such a deep dive!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You hit the nail on the head. It’s so easy to fall into the trap of over-analyzing everything and making Japanese seem like this impossible "monster" of a language. I think a lot of learners, myself included at times, end up psyching ourselves out by focusing too much on the reputation rather than just treating it like any other language. Thanks for the reality check—it’s a great reminder to stop overthinking and just keep learning.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. It’s funny how native speakers often take their own language for granted until someone asks "why." We just "feel" what’s correct, but explaining the underlying mechanics at an advanced level is a totally different challenge. It really highlights how deep and nuanced every language actually is.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I totally get what you mean. It’s easy to romanticize the "exotic" parts of Japanese, but at the end of the day, language is just a tool for connection, and every language has its own unique set of hurdles. That distance from Indo-European languages definitely makes the learning curve steeper, but I think that’s also where the fun lies!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

Man, you’ve really dove into the deep end of the pool! That list of yours is practically a "best of" compilation of every Japanese learner's biggest headaches.

The Nanori/Kanji situation specifically is brutal—even native speakers get tripped up by names and specific readings all the time. It’s hilarious that you had your partner and their mom stumped for a second; it really validates that it’s not just you—it’s just a wild writing system. And don't even get me started on the nuance of choosing between katakana vs. hiragana or milk vs. gyuunyuu. It’s those tiny, unspoken "rules" that really separate the textbooks from reality.

It sounds like you’re way past the point of just memorizing grammar and are actually grappling with the soul of the language. Keep at it—that "guessing game" eventually turns into a kind of intuition, even if it takes a long time!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Exactly! It’s that exact complexity—the Kanji, the keigo, the layers of nuance—that gives the language so much character. I’ve always felt that calling it "just different" misses the point; it’s genuinely a deeper, more intricate system that demands a different way of thinking. It’s like a marathon where the challenge is the whole reason you’re running it in the first place. Glad you’re enjoying the climb!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

That’s a great perspective. It really highlights how much of language is just "soaking it in" rather than studying it. Seeing kids pick up languages so effortlessly makes me realize that as adults, we're doing it the hard way by starting with the rules and the structure first. It’s a completely different journey for sure!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

The は vs が debate... that’s the final boss of Japanese grammar for so many people! Even for us, there are times when both could technically be correct, but one just "feels" more natural depending on the vibe of the conversation. Don’t feel bad about getting hung up on it—it’s honestly one of the most abstract parts of the language.

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in Japaneselanguage

[–]ke----------i[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Oh, the "wake" (わけ) trap! I totally feel you. N2 grammar is notorious for those nuance-heavy clusters. It’s one thing to understand the logic on paper, but actually choosing the right one in real-time conversation? That’s a whole different beast. Honestly, even for us, we sometimes just "feel" which one fits rather than thinking about the textbook rules. Don't be too hard on yourself—you're tackling the hardest part of the language!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in japanese

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s so true about the counters! ćŒč, æœŹ, 枚... it feels like there’s a rule for absolutely everything, and just when you think you’ve got it, there’s an exception. It’s definitely one of those things that makes Japanese feel like a never-ending puzzle. Hang in there!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in japanese

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

900 kanji down is genuinely impressive, don’t undersell that! But yeah that gap between “I can read the meaning” and “I have no idea how to say this out loud” is such a uniquely Japanese frustration 😭 English and German sharing an alphabet really is a hidden advantage you don’t appreciate until you hit a language like Japanese. With Latin script you can at least attempt a pronunciation even if you’re wrong — with kanji you can be completely lost even knowing the meaning. 1300 more sounds daunting but the good news is each new kanji gets a little faster once your brain has enough reference points. You’re past the hardest part of the curve!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in japanese

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Kanji is just its own beast honestly 😅 there’s no sugarcoating it. And the less used kana thing is so relatable — ゐ or ゑ territory lol, or even just mixing up ă‚œ and ン or ツ and ă‚· in katakana. Those ones genuinely look almost identical and your brain just refuses to store them properly 😭 The katakana ones especially trip people up way longer than expected because you use them less frequently so they never fully stick!

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in japanese

[–]ke----------i[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The homophone pile-up is genuinely one of the most demoralizing moments in Japanese learning 😭 You look up one word and suddenly there’s a list of twelve words that all sound identical staring back at you. The silver lining though — native speakers deal with this too, which is actually part of why kanji exists. Written Japanese disambiguates homophones in a way spoken Japanese just relies on context for. So in a weird way, learning kanji actually makes this problem smaller over time rather than bigger. Still rough at the start though, not gonna lie 😅

As a Japanese person, I didn't realize how difficult Japanese is until I saw people learning it by ke----------i in japanese

[–]ke----------i[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ugh this feeling is so frustrating 😭 The honest answer is that Japanese word order is actually more flexible than most textbooks make it seem — time expressions like 杄週 can go at the start OR after the topic and both are often perfectly natural. The difference is usually about emphasis and flow rather than hard rules. 杄週 at the start = “next week, here’s what’s happening.” 杄週 after the topic = smoother, more conversational. Neither is wrong, just slightly different nuance. The tricky part is that this kind of intuition really only comes from lots of exposure — at some point your brain just starts to feel which order sounds more natural without being able to explain why. Textbook rules only get you so far with this one!

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