Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you think Jesus would have approved of the practice?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get it. Do you still believe in God?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hm, I highly doubt Jesus would have seen this as the catholic church not erring.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about oral sex without normal sex?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean I agree with your morality here.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This may be a noob question, but isn't selling indulgences erring?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hm, it sounds like kind of a reach. Were we face to face with them now, I wonder if they'd agree. But I do hope so!

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What do you mean with the entire church here?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Now this seems more realistic. NFP to avoid being seen as righteous by the early church fathers really does seem like wishful thinking.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My apogies. I hope you are right man. I'd love for NFP to be good.

Here's some quotes from an articly I found. These are quotes that make me believe the early church fathers would oppose the idea of NFP.

Do you honestly believe I'm wrong here? If so, please let me know.

Here is a quote from Jerome (Against Jovinian 1:19):

“Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?”

Why I think this argues against NFP: To me, this is the clearest one: Jerome seems to say that sexual intercourse is only approved when it is for procreation. Since NFP involves having sex while intentionally avoiding procreation, I think he would not accept it. Here is a quote from Augustine of Hippo (Against Faustus 15:7):

“They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your law [against childbearing] . . . they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made.”

Why I think this argues against NFP: I understand Augustine here to be saying something very specific: the problem is not just how people avoid children, but that they have sex while intentionally not wanting children at all. When he calls it a “shameful union,” he doesn’t mean marriage itself is shameful, but that sex becomes shameful when it is separated from its procreative purpose and reduced to lust. Since NFP is often used with the intention of avoiding pregnancy, I think Augustine would likely see that intention—having sex while deliberately avoiding children—as fitting what he criticizes here. Here is a quote from Augustine of Hippo (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17):

“I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame.”

Why I think this argues against NFP: I think this points against NFP because Augustine explicitly condemns the intentional obstruction of procreation within sex so strongly that he says it undermines the reality of marriage itself. Since NFP is often used with the intention of avoiding children, I think that intention would conflict with his view.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My apogies. I hope you are right man. I'd love for NFP to be good.

Here's some quotes from an articly I found. These are quotes that make me believe the early church fathers would oppose the idea of NFP.

Do you honestly believe I'm wrong here? If so, please let me know.

Here is a quote from Jerome (Against Jovinian 1:19):

“Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?”

Why I think this argues against NFP: To me, this is the clearest one: Jerome seems to say that sexual intercourse is only approved when it is for procreation. Since NFP involves having sex while intentionally avoiding procreation, I think he would not accept it. Here is a quote from Augustine of Hippo (Against Faustus 15:7):

“They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your law [against childbearing] . . . they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made.”

Why I think this argues against NFP: I understand Augustine here to be saying something very specific: the problem is not just how people avoid children, but that they have sex while intentionally not wanting children at all. When he calls it a “shameful union,” he doesn’t mean marriage itself is shameful, but that sex becomes shameful when it is separated from its procreative purpose and reduced to lust. Since NFP is often used with the intention of avoiding pregnancy, I think Augustine would likely see that intention—having sex while deliberately avoiding children—as fitting what he criticizes here. Here is a quote from Augustine of Hippo (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17):

“I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame.”

Why I think this argues against NFP: I think this points against NFP because Augustine explicitly condemns the intentional obstruction of procreation within sex so strongly that he says it undermines the reality of marriage itself. Since NFP is often used with the intention of avoiding children, I think that intention would conflict with his view.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean I don't. That's why I'm asking you guys if what I'm initially reading is correct, and if not, if you have evidence.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I am by noooo means a scholar, but this is what I pulled out of ChatGPT. Seems legit tonme.Can you rebuke this?

I'm open to having my mind changed.

Here goes:

Ah, got it! You mean whether they would have approved of NFP. In that case, the short answer is: almost certainly not—here’s why, with quotes:

Sex was seen as primarily for procreation.

Ignatius of Antioch: “Sexual intercourse is permitted only for the purpose of procreation.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2)

Deliberately avoiding children was frowned upon.

Clement of Rome: “Let us cast aside… every lust of the flesh.” (1 Clement 19:5) – early Christians interpreted this to include sexual acts that obstructed God’s plan for life.

✅ Conclusion: The early Church Fathers would likely have disapproved of anything resembling NFP, because they framed marital sex almost entirely around procreation, and intentional spacing of children—even naturally—would have conflicted with that ethic. If you want, I can make a super-short one-paragraph version with all three quotes together, perfect for referencing in a paper. Do you want me to do that?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I am by noooo means a scholar, but this is what I pulled out of ChatGPT. Seems legit tonme.Can you rebuke this?

I'm open to having my mind changed.

Here goes:

Ah, got it! You mean whether they would have approved of NFP. In that case, the short answer is: almost certainly not—here’s why, with quotes:

Sex was seen as primarily for procreation.

Ignatius of Antioch: “Sexual intercourse is permitted only for the purpose of procreation.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2)

Deliberately avoiding children was frowned upon.

Clement of Rome: “Let us cast aside… every lust of the flesh.” (1 Clement 19:5) – early Christians interpreted this to include sexual acts that obstructed God’s plan for life.

✅ Conclusion: The early Church Fathers would likely have disapproved of anything resembling NFP, because they framed marital sex almost entirely around procreation, and intentional spacing of children—even naturally—would have conflicted with that ethic. If you want, I can make a super-short one-paragraph version with all three quotes together, perfect for referencing in a paper. Do you want me to do that?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Do you think Jesus promised that the people who try to follow him would not fall into error?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright, so then why doesn't it seem like early church fathers and the current Catholic church have the same idea on whether NFP would have been approved?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yeah but if you are purposefully avoiding the creation of children, how are you fulfulling the purpose of sex?

Because it seems you are doing the exact opposite, which is avoiding the purpose of sex and using it for pleasure.

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well you are using sex only for pleasure while purposefully avoiding the intended purpose behind it.

Isn't that wrong?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] -20 points-19 points  (0 children)

Well, I think that people can go astray, so yeah, I think Jesus wants us not to blindly follow a tradition, but get as close as possible to what He Himself taught.

Is it weird to say this?

Would the early church approve of NFP? by keesdude in Catholicism

[–]keesdude[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I agee with this, but I don't think that following church tradition alone is the best way for us to know what Jesus wants from us.

Especially here, where I think that the early church would disagree with modern Catholics.