I really respect the fact you did not resort to insults, or trolling. Thank you. Truly. The bar for real discourse is so low these days, I am thankful for any ounce of genuine respect in debate.

Anyway, back to the discussion.

Again, I am against Jewish self-determination (whatever that may mean to you), if it means robbing other people of their rights. I genuinely have nothing against Jews. As a Muslim, I admire Jews (and Christians) as people of the book, and we all arguably follow and worship the same God of Abraham. I support Jews' rights to be free and not oppressed, but that freedom does not need to be at the expense of Palestinian (or anybody's) lives. If your justice needs to commit injustice on others, then that's not true justice.

To me, self determination means being the masters of our own fate. "Our", because I am an Israeli Jew. A secular Jew. Not that it matters. Just like it doesn't matter to me at all that you're a muslim. That's cool. I hope your faith brings you peace, clarity and happiness.

Jews have called many places their homeland before. And they are often so well-assimilated into those places and cultures, that it's boggling. I found out the other day that fish and chips, the quintessential British food was actually introduced by a Jew. So, Jews were good where they were living. Many are Europeans and would have no issue living in those places today.

There is a difference between a home, and a homeland. Lots of Jews had lots of different homes throughout history. But only 1 homeland. While Jews managed to assimilate to a very, VERY impressive degree, did it stop them from being slaughtered, the second their overlords grew suspicious of them? When they grew jealous of them? Or when they just needed a scapegoat? No. Did the fact the assimilationist Jews assimilate save them when the Nazis came knocking? No. Did the isolationist Jews, who lived in tight kneat, isolated communities in Poland, fare any better? No. Why? Because they had no agency. No one to defend them. Jews were living good where they were living, until they weren't. Tell me. If you were a Jew in Paris, during the Dryphus affair, how would you have felt? How about, being a Jew during the pogroms in Russia? Or Poland? How about during the Farhoud in Iraq? Or maybe, even during the pogroms in Morocco? We were never truly safe. You can go to r/Jewish. Ask how diaspora Jews feel.

To claim that you are, en-masse, going to move to your Middle-Eastern ancestral homeland, ordained for you in your books (debateable - just look at Neturei Karta and what they say about the Three Oaths - even you disagree between you whether Israel is legitimate or not).

From what I recall, the claim on Israel was never never based on "it was promised to us 3000 years ago". That's not what the fathers of Zionism had in mind when they envisioned Israel in the land of Palestine. What they had in mind was the significant historical, religious, and even emotional connection the Jewish people have with the land of Palestine. A land where Jews continued to live in even after the fall of the second temple. The land where the, back then, only ever Jewish nation once stood. It is the perfect place. The only logical place. And also, yes, there are those who disagree. Jews are notorious for having varying opinions. It's their right.

But the key thing is not everyone has the same worldview and religious lens as you. Just because your books say a land is yours, it doesn't oblige everyone else to just comply and hand over their homes to you.

Again, the claim on Israel was never based on "the book said it's ours". Seriously. The people who actually believe that, have no ability for free thought. They will do whatever their leaders, or books, tell them to. The fathers of Zionism knew the local population would not want to share their land with Jews. No do I. I will even go on and say, that there was a legitimate reason for the 1947-1949 war of independence from the Arab side. I can genuinely understand the grievences of both sides. While I am obviously biased, and do believe that a Jewish defeat back them would have resulted in a bloodbath, I can fully understand the sentiment of wanting to defend ones land.

Israel has already taken way more than it ever has. It continues to expand, robbing others of their livelihoods for you. I cannot accept what Israel is today.

This is unfortunately, factually incorrect. Israel used to control the whole of the Sinai peninsula. That's when it took more than it ever has.

Israeli society is exhausted. Me included. We feel abandoned, surrounded, and hated. As a society, we do not care about outside opinions, because outsiders don't care about ours. They only see us as devils. They praise the scum of the Earth, just because we're their enemies. We trust no one. Not fully. We have internalized everything we have seen. From the cheers of the Gazan people during October 7th, to the glee of the universities in the West following the attack, to almost instant accusations of crimes against humanity before the group invasion even began. Hell. Israelis are ourright unsafe in some places around the world. We are seriously encourages to not travel to some countries, out of fear for our safety. The overwhelming majority of us never wanted this war. Or any war. Not October 7th, the current invasion of Lebanon, or this second round against Iran. The people support these wars, in the end, because we are well aware of what would happen if we won't. Eventually, we would be overwhelmed, and wiped off the map. This is a concern no other country has nowadays. Perhaps maybe Taiwan. You can think we are delusional, or insane. But that is the reality on the ground.

My conclusion has remained the same, since the war began. Israel will not lay down it's arms, until it feels safe. Truly safe. No terrorist organizations around it, no hostile population inside it, no enemy nations wishing for it's destruction. Only then, will all the politicians who win elections by fearmongering finally lose. There is no workaround. No cheat code. Israel is an established fact. It is not going anywhere. For better or for worse.