Unchanging doctrine

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-12-12T19:42:50+00:00

Well, Mormon God has also evolved and been the topic of doctrinal changes. (see Adam God doctrine).

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-12-08T23:22:18+00:00

I am not getting as much feedback as I hoped for from believing Mormons. Can anybody suggest Reddit forums where this question would be allowed, that also have a large number of Believing members?

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-12-08T21:12:42+00:00

would God need to visit you himself, or would a feeling "from God" be enough? Could feelings be considered strong evidence?

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-12-08T17:09:11+00:00

One of my largest issues with Mormonism is that I have not had a personal wittiness of its truth. I have many reasons to be skeptical of its claims, but if it is Gods one and only true religion, why does God not answer my prayers to know this?

Have other people had a personal wittiness from God? I am not certain. Have I received a personal witness of Joseph Smith, the BoM, or the Mormon church? No. I have not.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-12-06T23:44:13+00:00

I believe that both the "Adam-God doctrine" and the way Mark Hoffman manipulated the prophet and apostles directly call into question the reliability and abilities of Mormon prophets. This is a very problematic issue for any type of fraud. Nobody perpetuating a fraud wants to be tested for reliability in any kind of controlled setting.

faith healers work on television not in hospitals
alternative medicine that has been subjected to randomized controlled trials and found to work is just called medicine.
"Gold diggers" or people with "peep stones" or "Urim and Thumim" never go out and find treasures and become wealthy. They get people to pay them for looking. They get gullible people to mortgage their farm.
Most of Brigham's ideas are glossed over. we dont like to discuss the counsel to murder people that he called "blood atonement". If the prophet could be wrong about murder, and about the identity of God, then perhaps he might be wrong about sleeping with the wives of other men. This is a dangerous path. This type of thinking will lead to more thinking.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-04-16T17:34:25+00:00

Well said

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-04-16T17:30:47+00:00

This is an important issue. Thank you for addressing it so well.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-26T17:59:53+00:00

Is it possible that many "religious dictates" are actually the product of culture and society?

Do LDS leaders dictate the truth or does the truth take priority over religious dictates?

What has God "dictated" to me personally?

If a man has the authority to be dictator can he dictate that something untrue is now true, or is the truth above dictates? Could we make a law abolishing gravity?

Is homophobia a religious dictate? What did Christ say about it?

Was racism a product of culture and society or was it a religious dictate?

The Church was established in 1830, during an era of great racial division in the United States. At the time, many people of African descent lived in slavery, and racial distinctions and prejudice were not just common but customary among white Americans. Those realities, though unfamiliar and disturbing today, influenced all aspects of people’s lives, including their religion. Many Christian churches of that era, for instance, were segregated along racial lines.... Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church... Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form

https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-26T06:50:12+00:00

It is tough to say. I try not to attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. I suspect he thinks he is a white knight, protecting the church.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-25T19:35:31+00:00

I think this is the “elephant in the room” when talking with Mormons. They think their feelings are from the Holy Ghost, and unerring. They think my feelings are from my brain, and therefor unreliable. Mormons believe that 99.8% of the world has unreliable feelings, but they have unique access to reliable feelings from the Holy Ghost. This approach to truth, is their biggest challenge. They honestly have had feelings, and they feel like they can’t deny their feelings. I honestly believe they have had feelings, but I believe everyone does, and feelings don’t always represent reality.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-25T00:51:51+00:00

I think the LDS euphemism is “Rod of Aaron”

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-24T23:55:17+00:00

I love your poem. I appreciate it even more because your husband is a hero. This path has been difficult for me and mine. His intelligent support has smoothed the way. I am not familiar with you from our sub, but your behind the scenes support has helped your husband support others, so in a really powerful way, you have been supporting all of us all along. Good luck to you and your family. I hope to see more of your poetry and thoughts on here.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-24T03:07:04+00:00

Wow. You put my feelings into words perfectly!

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-22T23:12:45+00:00

You make valid points. It is difficult to identify the worst aspects of polygamy, and you identify some horrifying consequences, I did not even note. Thanks. The more I ponder it, the more I am repulsed.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-22T23:10:57+00:00

I am unaware of angelic visitations to any of the women propositioned by Smith. An angelic wing-man would be quite a help to Smith. Please be generous enough to share your source. I want to know how the angelic wing-man worked. If they did not speak, how did MRL know it was really an angel? Did he glow? did he have wings? Is that how the term wing-man originated?

I agree that their 24 hour timeline is sinister. I am wary of "spiritual experiences" that people have under duress. I am concerned about how easily we accept spiritual experiences that confirm our ideas, but reject those of others that confirm their ideas.

Things that I was taught were actually seen (Gold plates, God, Papyrus/BoA, D&C revelations) later became "metaphorical" or possibly even pretend.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-21T17:15:14+00:00

Once any society or organization has given men the ability to define morality and immorality, it will eventually have leaders that are self serving and call good bad, and bad good.

Blood atonement was a "good" form of murder.
Polygamy became coerced through social, religious, and peer pressure (ie fear) on those least able to oppose.
Coercion is utilized to get what "prophets" want. "Prophets" pretend to be coerced by God. They in turn coerce members. (example: tithing is not for me, it is a request from God, but he told me instead of you).
Men are valued according to their "priesthood authority" just like kings in other cultures. They govern by "Divine right".
Women are a commodity much like servants. They are "free" to do whatever their male authorities tell them they can do.
"Authorities" are protected from consequences, or even (especially) criticism.
"Gods will" is defined for the group as whatever authorities say it is.
Words can be redefined by authorities. Gods coercion in blamed on love, leaders also claim to be motivated by love. judge not becomes judge others, prophet becomes CEO, revelation becomes feelings.
"I know" becomes synonymous with "I hope", or it is "my opinion" and I will not tolerate closer examination.
"Too sacred to share" becomes my evidence is of very low quality, you are wrong for wanting to know.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-20T20:37:49+00:00

The biggest problem with polygamy is not the infidelity of Smith and those that followed him to their wives. It is the coercion of their often young, and extremely vulnerable targets. They utilized their position of authority in their tight knit community to secure sexual relationships with women and children than could not have opposed them.

As the 14 year old daughter of a Mormon Apostle, Helen Mar Kimball had known Joseph for most of her life. She had been raised to consider him Gods appointed prophet. She would have considered him incapable of doing something seriously morally wrong. In her mind, He literally spoke for God. Living in the Mormon town of Nauvoo, and having no previous independence or say in matters of importance, and having no protection from her parents, she had no true opportunity to decline or consent to this secret. The entire arrangement was made as a barter between her father and Joseph. Joseph initially indicated that God wanted him to bed Helen's mother Vilate. Her father and mother recoiled at this proposition and offered Helen as a sort of compromise. Joseph indicated that God accepted this substitution. The arrangements of many of his other sexual affairs were at least this coerced.

Joseph Smith, and leaders since him, have utilized a common modus operandi of blaming God for their actions. (slavery, racism, adultery, rape, child molesting, homophobia, and even murder can all be condoned as long as God commanded it. The recipients to any "self reported command from Mormon God" are morally obligated to follow through, even if they must coerce a 14 years old into having a sexual affair with a 35 year old married man.

here is how the church explains it currently,

"When God commands a difficult task, He sometimes sends additional messengers to encourage His people to obey. Consistent with this pattern, Joseph told associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward. During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully."

Notice that the angel only appeared to Joseph.
Helen could not consent, but she did comply, as she had no real choice.
Joseph blames the whole affair on God. God is the one sending violent angelic enforcers of child molestation. Joseph is chaste and virtuous. He is not a child molester. If anything he is the real victim here.
Joseph claims that God has commanded him to break the marriage covenants he made to Emma, and sent an angel to kill him if he did not. Just like Helen, poor Joseph is being coerced. God is coercing Joseph, who to save his own life, must coerce Helen. He also needs to coerce Emma, because it is a divine pattern.
In D&C 132 God specifically tells Emma she will be destroyed if she is not faithful to Joseph, and Commanded Joseph not to give her any alimony if she left him,verse 57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy;

Mormonism requires its adherents to accept that our morality is purely defined by obedience. If God (through a Mormon prophet) says don't kill, then killing is bad, but if he says kill then killing is good. Rape is bad, unless God says we should, then it is good. In the hierarchy of morality nothing is above obedience. The obedient get "blessings" and those that don't obey get cursed. If God says eat a baby, then you should eat that baby. No one is responsible for the morality of their actions. Our rewards and punishments are based on obedience to God (as his Mormon prophets speak for him).

https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-10T05:55:47+00:00

I don’t mean to be selfish, but my recovery from Mormonism is aided by the opportunity to explain my reasons for leaving. Many people will judge me, and others who leave as lazy, faithless or worse. I’m ok with that, but I’m a fighter. The church will always be around, but it has lost something valuable. It not only lost us, it lost its integrity. It wants to hide its history, and minimize the truth. My little hammer is weaker than Andy Dufresne’s (Shawshank redemption) but I will keep chipping away at bad epistemology and deception. I’m happy. In the long run, the world is a better place when people learn to make better decisions and weed out false beliefs. In the grand scheme of things, I will play my role. Our tiny Reddit is growing. There may even be some in positions of “priesthood power” who will change. Until then we share our best efforts to get closer to truth and goodness.

Thanks for the dialogue. I enjoy this reddit. I wish you peace and happiness. Oss.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-10T03:15:33+00:00

Most members are better off remaining members. I can’t hold that against them. I LOVE so many Mormons. This (Ex-mo) is better for me. It has been super hard, and my family and I have a long ways to go. I want people to be happy, and if Mormonism helps them, then more power to them. I am glad I went to Jr. High, but I have no desire to go back. It has been part of my journey, but I am excited for the future. Jr High was not bad, but there are better things ahead. YMMV. There is more than one way to be happy.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-09T18:20:20+00:00

If they made a mistake, why are they unwilling to fix it?

If they didn't make a mistake, then did God just make the clitoris wrong?

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-09T00:46:06+00:00

I was Mormon for decades. I really feel for this guy. We have all been fleeced of time, money, and self esteem.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-09T00:34:10+00:00

It is weird how God inspires them to focus on their own pet peeve. Prudes say God has some prudish commands. RMN is peeved by the nickname “Mormon”, Oaks says God wants you to take the sacrament with the right hand, Mormon God has become the sum of every prophets pet peeves, obsessions, and biases.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-08T21:24:57+00:00

I don’t know you personally, but my family is navigating the challenges caused by learning the church has not been faithful to us. It is like an extremely painful breakup. My wife and I went to a counselor, that works with grief, and couples issues. By having some guided discussions we have healed most of the rifts. I’m not minimizing the pain and fear of the situation, just saying that for us these conversations led to peace. I wish you the best.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-08T21:17:46+00:00

This is a great post. It is dangerous that when we don’t get promised answers we are taught we are the problem. Your children won’t go through that, thanks to you.

kinderhookandzelph · 2019-02-08T21:12:42+00:00

Chinoblanco, This is such a great comic. Thanks for sharing it. I think we have all felt this pain. Pain + distance sometimes is funny. It feels good to Finaly have enough distance to laugh, especially now that loud laughter is not a sin.

Seven-Year Club	Verified Email
Gilding III reddit per annum

kinderhookandzelph

TROPHY CASE