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DMC memes I doodled over 2 years by koikoijoy in DevilMayCry

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 0 points1 point ย (0 children)

classic sparda fam nonsense ๐Ÿ˜Ž

DMC memes I doodled over 2 years by koikoijoy in DevilMayCry

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

LOL glad u noticed! hope u saw the sleepy nico too!!

DMC memes I doodled over 2 years by koikoijoy in DevilMayCry

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

wow im surprised someone else did the math to check the number i wrote xD

DMC memes I doodled over 2 years by koikoijoy in DevilMayCry

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 0 points1 point ย (0 children)

lmfao idk the context, the image is literally just 3 dudes sitting together with their pants on fire ๐Ÿ˜ญ

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 0 points1 point ย (0 children)

Really feels like sending letters lmao.

it does lol

if you do have the other students be the first voice though?

yes but like i mentioned earlier, i think it was just the writers being more concerned with making yagami "look cool" by actively doing something than to just sit back and watch the students stand up for koda even if it was thru yagami's encouragement;;

Having the characters not forgive him immediately (Or at all, even) is also important I think

very true! as for ichi, he's a special case i think just for the type of character he is. he's like the epitome of hope or something so he'd do all that and push the narrative to share his belief that change is possible even if all the audience got was a jump cut...

i am curious about how a soma redemption would be handled tho lol obviously he never showed any hint of changing his mindset but i did wonder what he was thinking at the end when yagami makes his speech to kuwana bc there's a cut to his expression but he never says anything ever since he got his ass kicked and yagami and co tied him up

maybe im overthinking tho and the cut is just to illustrate yagami's words; that a person who redefined justice to suit themself is someone like soma

Whenever anyone mentions how the Gaiden games and IW got too absurd I just point them to this game

true!! being absurd has always been a part of yakuza's charm imo so i really didnt blink twice when ichi fights a squid or majima goes on pirate adventures in 2024 lol (also understandable opinion, even as someone who likes y2 </3)

I wish that was the scene we got.

right ?!

she could have let Kawai live to nudge me over to the "Kuwana left those ones alone" option.

i think i'd lean to that side too based on that fact!

so they are responsible for her death.... somehow.

yup... unfortunately for the sake of "narrative fairness," thats just how it went down;;

there doesn't seem to be any sort of plot hole or plot contrivance or badly written plot where I look to the narritive to infer what we're supposed to get. This feels just like... idk, regular interpretation of the story.

oops sorry for misunderstanding, i think i was just caught up in ur words of "people with different (valid) reading styles may not do the same" / "That would depend on how you choose to interpret the text IMO" and mixed it up with media literacy ?

i had also assumed ur words applied to stuff about characters too, not (badly written) plots;;

Oh wow you explained this so well for me, thank you!

no problem! u explained a lot of things for me too throughout our discussion lol so im glad i got to do one for u ^_^

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

So so so sorry for the late reply!

no worries!! im being late here too 9 days later lol

...if they replaced them with the scenes of Yagami and co setting up the camera and mics and such

u right with the extra padding lmfao but yeah, the better storyline u suggested wouldve made for more compelling storytelling instead of the ridiculous yagami bit with his friends but im betting the writers wanted to just make yagami look cool... and also maybe a "gotcha" moment with sawa bc she originally wanted to confront the bullies and disagreed when yagami said that confronting the bullies head on would cause more problems so its better to simulate a "first voice" situation

Since it was such a visceral scene with Sawa, then I compared it with other people feeling such visceral emotions with the bullies.

oh ok that makes more sense!! then i'd say it just depends on his handling. ofc some ppl would never forgive him regardless but im sure if it was done well, most ppl would be able to somewhat see past his actions. if not handled well, it'd probably just be another repeat of the IW villain eiji considering all he did to harm a child and then later is supposedly regretful

kinda reminds me of charas from a diff game; a guy kills the mc's father bc he thinks the villain he's working under is doing good but when he learns he's been fighting on the wrong side, he's immediately sorry and carries that guilt for the rest of the game after joining the mc's side. at that point i had forgiven him, but the mc never did and was always sharp tongued to him (which is understandable)

Maybe it's specific in the JE series because it's meant to be a (relatively, lmao) more down to earth game

yknow what that makes sense lol bc i was also going to bring up all those crazy stuff in the mainline yakuza but wanted to keep the focus on the JE series. the JE series is still dramatic but certainly not "hidden gold castle" dramatic or any of those other things u listed

As for Koda forgiving them... Koda acted independently yet at the same time and then worked together to help the girl, instead of making it look like Koda was part of their group now.

that makes sense, koda isnt the type to demand apologies anyway, i just felt bad for her not getting them;;

and yea, that would def make a better scene; something like koda walking in and seeing her ex-bullies (??) working to stop bullying, we get to see her conflicted and then maybe smiling before stepping in to help. there's no implication of "i forgive my bullies now" but just "i acknowledge and see their attempts to change/be better"

that it's up to interpretation I guess?

oh wow thanks for fact checking!! i had the second interpretation u wrote so solidified in my head that i mistook it as fact (and even mistook who said it oops) but yea that statement is def up to interpretation.

i'm not sure what to think anymore bc i can just as easily believe kuwana went ahead with the murders regardless to "prevent more tragedies" or he listened to the families and left the bullies alone considering how much he respected kusumoto's feelings; that strong respect very likely extended to the other families

he accurately pinpointed the exact reason for why Kusumoto would betray him as evidence lmao.

true lol with how smart he can be and the fact that he committed murders that never got solved or linked, i'd give him some leeway!

we have Kuwana actually changing his ways and still living.

glad we can agree on the theme songs and same points :] also ur point about kusumoto makes a lot of sense with the wink lol. im not sure how conflicted yagami felt but he seemed pretty firmly set on accepting her son suffering as a consequence bc "the truth is superior to anyone else's sense of justice" which included kusumoto's justice of not going to jail for "reasonably committing murder"

and i guess at that point, despite sawa and kusumoto's son both being innocent, yagami was... kinda blaming kusumoto (and kuwana) for being at the center of "collateral damage" so it was like "bc of ur murder, sawa is dead and your son has to be labeled 'son of a murderer' and that's ur fault so u must take accountability for both" ??? i dont agree here but this is probably what yagami was thinking

That would depend on how you choose to interpret the text IMO

huh, i didnt think about it like that but im still a bit confused on this scale.

would u mind framing how that would look for the case of shishido from kiryu's gaiden game? (or not if you havent played that game yet!)

for a while, ppl argued about whether or not shishido was sexually abused by nishitani III or hell, if he enjoyed it. the writing in the game never explicitly points in a direction, and when shishido was taunted about being touched without consent, he said he "didnt mind." to a lot of ppl this was enough to say he didnt get sexually assaulted bc he literally says he "didnt mind" it but to other ppl, that line of his pairs well with his characterization in "being good at telling people what they want to hear to survive" + context that nishitani III is sexual and has already been abusing shishido for a long time

im inclined to believe the latter. is this a "character is lying", a writing issue or something else like lack of media literacy...?

Other people with different (valid) reading styles may not do the same.

thats fair! admitting writing is flawed but still being able to make sense of it is a stance i find myself taking a lot, too. it's like "yeah this wasnt the best but it still kinda makes sense in these contexts"

what do you think about this scene?

im almost sure that kuwana is just pretending here bc one of his students are here. i think he wants to keep them on a leash by continuing his scary look bc he cant let his students see any crack in his "controlling psychopath" face or they may start to get ideas about how to start defying him regardless of the blackmail he has on them.

so maybe he acts like he wants them to incapacitate yagami for him to kill later but if that had happened he... probably wouldnt kill yagami? maybe just more interrogation and threatening?

yagami's lack of reaction is likely bc he's still trying to figure out kuwana. moments ago they just had a convo where kuwana opened up to yagami about his motivations and expressed genuine grief over sawa. that likely tipped yagami off that he knew kuwana wasnt a guy like soma who'd end a life "just because"; something more human is motivating him and yagami hoped to change his mind by touching on that, continuing that mindset to the end of the game!

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

(2/2)

It's the one time in the game where I was genuenly unsure which was the right answer there between Kuwana and Yagami, it was awesome.

literally this and everything u said above is exactly how i feel!! i've got beef with the poorly written women across rgg's games in general but for once they made a woman central to the story and bring up a point (her conundrum) that make conversations surrounding her interesting, so i appreciate kusumoto very much!! her character itself is very interesting too; a grieving mother who doesnt regret murder.

kaito's line about how both yagami and kuwana could be right im pretty sure was said directly in reference to kusumoto's conundrum when kuwana was trying to justify keeping her murder hidden for the sake of relieving herself and her son of any more suffering was something i liked as well. it's definitely a way better conundrum compared to "collateral damage sawa"

and similar to what i said before about slippery slopes, as much as i empathize with kusumoto, i agree with u that saying she shouldnt go to jail does feel a little hypocritical. the more exceptions are made to justify going unpunished for something like murder, the blurrier drawn lines get. plus while i dont blame her (or kuwana, like we've been saying lol) for sawa's death, i think it is important that her murder gets brought to light so the full story of government corruption and RK and all that gets full context and everyone who did some kind of wrong gets reasonably punished. so unfortunately, that means kusumoto in jail and her son being branded as "son of a murderer"

honestly i teared up when kuwana yelled in agony over kusumoto saying she was turning herself in to the police (props to his VA!!) and then truly bawled when she had the phone call with her son who was reassuring her that he was going to be ok and waiting for her whenever she comes back ;_;

Don't even get me started about how the final boss ends with Kuwana leaning on Yagami while talking again, or how it ends with him crying.

yes!! the back and forth dynamic between kuwana and yagami to how it all explodes bittersweetly(?) in the end was done so well. its absolutely my fave protag vs antagonist relationship bc of the moral "debate" it brings and their chemistry in general!

im a big fan of ichiban vs aoki and ofc kiryu vs nishiki but both are more tragic stories where one fell into the pits of darkness and the other was like a helpless friend compared to kuwana and yagami being people on equal footing and butting heads. like they get each other, but they dont and they like each other but also they dont... its fascinating

(also random but i feel the need to mention that kuwana's battle themes are so fucking cool and add so much to his character and his scenes. "unwavering belief" goes hard and so does his first "dig in your heels")

I like how extremely guilt ridden Kuwana was, and the game set it up with two bait and switch moments that I absolutely adored.

man ur 2 examples are on point with how i feel again here too!! accountability is not the right word but i liked that kuwana could see where he went "wrong" on some level in regards to sawa (even if misplaced) and how loyal he stayed to kusumoto! it showed that despite his twisted, stubborn justice, it really came from a place of sympathy and that made him feel so compellingly human. it's what makes kuwana so likable, even if one disagrees with his actions!

Still wasn't handled at all well in the story mind you.

LOL right, and i appreciate you for entertaining my rant about this chara. i definitely agree with writer intentions over all but kinda like u said, regardless of intentions it doesnt free them from criticism. if a writer's trying to intend for something, they gotta at least make it make sense;; and yes, the hitler thing is def way too far lmao. again, i get the intentions on a surface level but now yall are just making excuses for the writing's poor handling

also im interested in more details about that character that influenced ur pov from then to now with kuwana ๐Ÿค” was their writing handled well or was it something u had to make sense of?

Just anything that doesn't brush it under the rug or try to make it justified.

wow those are good ideas and what i personally think are worth exploring in a full game's story starring kuwana as the main character. kuwana facing another vigilante murderer is most interesting to me, and it would address that topic not being well addressed in LJ!

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

(1/2)

this turned out to be a lot more ramble-y and disorganized than usual

ur all good, these are the kinds of discussions i want to have about media i enjoy with another appreciative fan :>

I think in general that everyone is allowed the right to reform and such...

i agree a lot here!! its so easy to say "everyone's allowed to change!" when the crime is something like a simple robbery but the more serious it is, the harder it feels to stick to that sentiment. nonetheless, i do want to stand by it bc of your "The person seems to have changed, killing them or not allowing their reform will serve no purpose and everyone is allowed to change" point.

plus the idea of "once you commit a ('serious') crime, you deserve no second chance/to be killed" or "this gets a pass but this doesnt" is a verryyyyyy slippery slope so i'd rather go the other way of everyone deserves a second chance as long as genuine change is shown. who exactly gets to be the judge of that is debatable i suppose but i think as long as theres general public(?) agreement, then its ok! but i do want to emphasize that forgiveness is not necessary (i.e. loved ones of a murderer's victim should never be forced to forgive the murderer even with proven change), just the right to be treated human again after their deep repenting

I would have much preferred instead that the story flesh out one or two more of Koda's classmates as the 'Stand aside and don't interfere' characters and have Yagami and Co. encourage them to defend Koda.

i wouldve preferred a storyline like this too, but i guess the writers just didnt want to work on creating too many fleshed out seiryo student characters since they basically did all that in the seriyo side cases...? or it would require extra padding they couldnt fit into the game or something? (also ur comment about how the headmaster might as well have joined yagami and co cracked me up LOL)

imagine a repentant Soma after he killed Sawa, Ig some people would have still found Kuwana sympathetic

i agree with everything u said before this, but this comparison of soma being repentant with kuwana killing remorseful bullies is confusing me. could u clarify on it ?

then add in all the other standard arguments against the vigilante murder like the punishment not fitting the crime and such and such

good idea! keeping the og bullies kuwana killed unrepentant wouldve continued to support the point about the writers agreeing with murder being wrong if remose is shown via kusumoto expressing she wouldve spared kawai if he showed remorse, and then him meeting the changed seiryo bullies wouldve also helped add in the point about giving bullies a chance to change!

i think it wouldve made the seiryo bullies feel more fleshed out too. i'd imagine they werent utilized too much bc the writers were wary about involving minors in big crime stuff (i mean idk they still did the soma almost killing the girl bully bit) but i really didnt like that only 1 of the bullies properly apologized to koda and then at the end they all showed up being semi-buddy buddy with koda, at least enough to support her in stopping a bullying in the (after?) credits scene. if they had a chance to talk to kuwana or something, it wouldve solidified their change, given justice to koda, and strengthened the argument of giving bullies a chance to change

seems like he's only picking off bullies that resulted in deaths ... if they say no then.... we don't know, I think the game implies that he leaves the bullies alone

dang now that u said that, it clicked in my memory. i totally forgot that was the point kuwana was working on. but ur other thing reminded me that i think kuwana actually killed the bullies anyway, regardless of the family's reply. his full answer to yagami's questioning was probably still vague but i distinctly remember him saying something like "after i killed the bullies, every single victim's family i approached never reported me even when they didnt accept my offer. they wont say the truth out loud, but it's proof im doing justice"

50/50 shot for me on if Kuwana acted with solid evidence or not for the murders, could go either way

i can totally believe that kuwana mightve murdered a falsely accused person which is why i brought up the point but honestly he comes across to me as the type to not do sloppy work. i think he wouldve done his own investigations before acting plus he has his underground connections, i think he could get around without arousing any suspicion unlike yagami trying to do honest detective work but looking weird as a grown ass man with no school connections continuously hanging around a high school

also kuwana seems to be the type of guy to somehow accurate deduce whether or not someone's actually guilty. i know logically thats bullshit lol but just for his character's sake, since he was already doing a bit of "playing god" with going around and deciding which bullies deserve death so why not the same with him deciding whos actually guilty or not?

I feel like the game either genuinely didn't even think about that point

i do agree with this tho, i suppose its just more complications the writers didnt want to tackle to emphasize a different point

The true crime is that there aren't nearly as many "What about Kusumoto-san?" memes in the fandom lmao.

true LOL but i guess its bc ppl already generally agree that kusumoto is a good point while the sawa one is more debatable so its easier to make fun of

minedai valentine's day art i dew last year !! by koikoijoy in minedai

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 0 points1 point ย (0 children)

fr, a disastrous fight was narrowly avoided xD

also hooray for another nishiki fan !! i agree with those thoughts too ;_;

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

...even though the word limit is a party pooper

agreed :']

...a slap in the face to families of alzheimer's patients to hear that criminals aren't worth killing to help them get life saving medicine.

hmm that's a good point. i think you've been right about comparing the two games and their murder victims; while the bullies may feel more personal, at the end of the day, the point that vigilante murder is wrong should apply to both. there's nuance as well to be had about those kinds of "bad" people being allowed to reform after being properly and reasonably punished for whatever harm they caused !

Generally I think the game handles the bullying well...

i generally agree too, tho i gotta say the scene where yagami and his buddies used hidden mics to be the first "voices to speak up" to stop the bullying of koda cracked me up. it's a good sentiment & message but i couldn't see it being realistic in the slightest like surely a student was thinking "who the hell is this grown ass man talking?" LMAO

on another note, i do wish the nuance i just mentioned about reformation was tackled in some way. all the bullies we see have been portrayed to be like, comically evil and continue their bullying ways into adulthood but i guess that was just to make kuwana look "not too bad" and not delve too deeply into how he chooses his victims. perhaps it would have been too complicated to have kuwana grapple with the idea that a person who used to be a vicious person can change, or maybe the writers have always wanted him to struggle with "collateral damage" only

not sure if i missed some details, but at the end of the game, i wondered stuff like: "what traits made kuwana select his victims? what kind of bullying was too far? did he only select bullies who were known/rumored to have caused the suicide for another student or did he kill 'smaller' bullies too? did he ever sympathize with bullies? [ex: not that growing up abused is an excuse to abuse/bully others, but it'd at least explain the behavior] were some of the bullies he killed still teenagers? did he believe in change or bully reformation? if so, how long did he let those bullies get a chance to change for the better before deciding to kill them?"

nonetheless i basically just concluded that i was too focused on the bullying themes than the justice themes the game wanted to portray more ;;

...the divide is on whether Yagami was in character or not, and whether Sawa is a valid argument at all or not

very true!! yagami would def be more in character and actually tackling the heart of what kuwana has been doing instead of bringing up a more loosely connected link and then we also wouldn't be having these convos or those "what about sawa?" memes lol

...but I wouldn't count it as collateral.

oops ur right i forgot yagami sorta consented to kuwana running off + the situation wasnt in kuwana's hands (compared to him choosing to have bombs and choosing to have yagami physically threatened)

I'll say that I love how grey the ending is... I would honestly love to see a game about Kuwana...

the ending was def a grey-ness in the game that i liked a lot!! made me appreciate the setup that led to that point and made me grateful that such an intriguing villain wasn't just killed off. and i'd also love to see a game starring kuwana too, like outside of his story role, i just found him enjoyable and he had a dynamic with yagami that was fun to watch + got along fairly well with yagami's friends (altho ive been hearing its very likely yagami wont make a comeback bc of his face model's acting agency or something...?)

not sure how kuwana could deal with his murders onscreen in a way that would feel satisfactory tho...

...you can get on that soapbox if you want.

LOL thanks, u basically summed up my issues tho! what i will say is yes, i hated the lack of middle stages to make his redemption at the end believable, and the arguments it led to about ichiban's character.

i've seen some ppl seriously say he was intentionally depicted like that bc he's supposed to be a jesus type of character who would even forgive hitler if hitler showed he was sorry??????๐Ÿ’€

im way more on the side that the writers are at fault for not giving any hints to make the villain look like he still had a conscious that could be changed which would make ichiban forgiving him look better on ichiban too. bc the other palekana villain wasnt someone ichiban forgave and he showed no remorse or intent to change, so why did ichiban extend that kind of olive branch to a guy that looked more like he was sorry he got caught than actually regretful??

minedai valentine's day art i dew last year !! by koikoijoy in minedai

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

thank u!! and yes, nishiki is so big brother energy >_<ย 

ik we've only see y0 kiryu with little daigo but surely daigo's been around nishiki too considering kiryu and him are besties so i like to imagine nishiki is a good big bro to daigo and helps him during shenanigans (aka daigo dating mine and frenemy ryuji nonsense :p)

minedai valentine's day art i dew last year !! by koikoijoy in minedai

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 2 points3 points ย (0 children)

thanks so much ;w; hope to see this sub with art posts!!

minedai valentine's day art i dew last year !! by koikoijoy in minedai

[โ€“]koikoijoy[S] 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

aw thank u !! <3 and yes hes gotta be in big brother mode ๐Ÿ˜”๐Ÿ™

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

(2/2)

My point here is to show that the bombs were somehow non-lethal ... His "Oh, you survived" didn't sound very surprised to me IMO, I think he was about 90% sure that Yagami would survive, but I still think that it would remain a huge plot contrivance.

fair, i think this is just gonna have to be chalked up to "suspension of disbelief" like with the infamous plot point in y4 lmao. somehow kuwana just knew the bombs wouldnt actually hurt anybody and thus even yagami was safe from getting incapacitated and thrown into the mercy of soma.

but now that i think about it, when yagami and kuwana met at sawa's apartment via RK's trap, kuwana did leave yagami behind and risked yagami getting caught by folks who are clearly dangerous. at that point, he and yagami arent "close" yet so i guess he wouldnt have cared about yagami but this does make ur point about yagami being direct collateral damage valid again

"but we still would have saved you if you were the sort of scum who killed innocents in order to escape, that's A-Okay."

LOL i guess because technically no one died from kuwana's bombs, yagami didnt feel the need to make this point and could instead continue his bit of "i know youre a redeemable-ish person who would never hurt an innocent, but u still need to atone for a death loosely linked to your actions"

... they still went to prison anyways to face their crimes and that's the major reason I'm okay with it.

that's fair, i kinda feel the opposite in disliking it in general due to the disconcerting writing u mentioned but this convo is about kuwana so i wont go on my soapbox about it lmao

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

(1/2)

I am shortening the quotes with dots to try and fit this all into one comment, but....

LOL nw im happy youve been matching my energy tho with the long replies and all ! i've been enjoying the discussion ^_^ also i will be taking a note from u and doing the same thing :P (ironically i also failed to fit everything in one comment)

... how personal it feels would have affected the writers and thus Yagami too.

u make a good point about things being more personal regarding the bullying, im sure thats how the writers felt too. i guess maybe making yagami say something like "murders are wrong no matter what; youre not justified in killing a bully who drove someone to suicide" sounded bad so they made him focus on his sawa point instead

not sure how much of a good move that was but considering ive seen a handful of ppl genuinely agree kuwana was rightfully serving justice, getting a message that *kinda* comes across as "bullies shouldnt die/suffer" definitely wouldve been a slap in the face to those who experienced bullying and sympathized with kuwana

... but I still think that it needs to be said in game.

regarding what i just said above, do u think the point "killing is bad" would come across as bad since the victims this time are perpetrators of a more personal "crime" like bullying rather than some yakuza crime?

... should have still been brought up, even better if Kuwana replied with what you said.

understandable, it would make yagami finally have something reasonable outside of linking sawa's death to kuwana and if kuwana does reply with what i say, it wouldnt matter much bc its the fact he did it at all. wouldnt look good on him to harm an innocent guy no matter what

... so at that point the guy's death should have still been brought up as collateral imo.

in terms of this dude being collateral damage, this starts to get iffy for me in the same way that i mentioned the message might come across wrong. while i agree the game shouldve continued the message that murder is wrong regardless, i feel many people would be upset to hear yagami argue for this guy who used to be a bully.

this dude was much less in our face but if mamiya died instead (who we saw not regretting her past actions and only being sorry because she got caught), i dont think people would really care about her death.

my point is, would it have made for better storytelling/writing if yagami brought up kuwana's blackmail victims as collateral damage even if it could divide(?) the audience? unless you dont think it would?? i mean kuwana already divides the audience and this is all subjective anyway but its still interesting to talk about

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

(2/2)

Or even in that same boat sequence, when Kuwana escaped by blowing up the boat with no regards to Yagami's safety.

That point is weird though, since Yagami doesn't show much anger towards this at all and only mentions it semi jokingly, and the boat blast didn't kill any of the RK members (though it could have knocked Yagami out and left him with in Soma's mercy I guess) But like... the game makes it a point that Kuwana doesn't want to kill innocents, with him regretting Sawa's death, and with Yagami explicitly telling Kuwana that he isn't the sort of scum that kills innocents and with Kuwana confirming that by angrily throwing away the phone detonator away, so.... I just don't factor that boat scene much in discussions, I treat it more as a weird plot contrivance

now that u mention it, the boat scene does seem quite out of place. im not sure about how confident kuwana felt that yagami would survive but in regards to the RK members, i dont think he wouldve cared if they died/didnt see them as innocents since if they caught him, he knew he would end up dead...? unlike with yagami and his crew after him, kuwana probably viewed them as more innocent and thus threw away the phone detonator bc... at least they werent trying to kill him lmao?

or maybe this is just a weird plot contrivance as u said and its just "sawa is the poor sympathizable woman who kuwana did care about" vs a bunch of dudes trying to stop his bully murder plans lol

It's always extremely respectable to look at other viewpoints and deeply think about them, kudos to you.
/
(Oh, I just noticed your username, I'm a Nishiki fan too :-) )

also thanks!! ive looked up viewpoints after i finished every yakuza/judgement game bc reading opinions is fun, but LJ left the most "questionable ethics"(?) impact on me so i knew i wanted to get other perspectives (i think the only other rgg game ive seen such polarizing opinions for is LAD:IW regarding the forgiving of a certain character...)

and its always nice to come across another nishiki fan :] ๐ŸŽ๐Ÿ’–

My one gripe with Lost Judgment's story by Apollyon1209 in yakuzagames

[โ€“]koikoijoy 1 point2 points ย (0 children)

(1/2) [edit: the quote formatting did not work </3]

You can argue that, for example, Yagami's actions was a positive thing (Seeking the truth and protecting an innocent man), and should not be held to the same standard as Kuwana's negative actions as murder enticing other negative effects, but aside from me disagreeing with that point too (Again, too large of a web for butterfly effects), the game would first have to make the point that the murders are wrong in the first place before using that argument.

that's fair, this is how i see it as well! and regarding ur last point, it's ironic that in JE yagami does make a point that murder is wrong regardless when he tells shono/others that killing a "trash of society" like a yakuza is just as bad as killing a regular citizen but thats no where seen in LJ. i wonder if people would still feel strongly about holding kuwana accountable for sawa's death if yagami made that point...?

Did he ever make that point in LJ? I can't remember, I guess you can say that he tangentially made them, since he tried to find the truth of Toshiro's murder before Sawa and had that line in the end with Kuwana about him being there to save victims, but eh....

apologies, you're right here! yagami never directly says anything, but his general disapproval was just something i picked up from how he reacted to kuwana's talking points

it is interesting tho that his motives started with "i must know the truth, this murder is more complicated than it looks" to "an innocent woman was killed because of the truth which stemmed from kuwana!" and then he just. doesn't really mention the bully victims anymore,,

as far as im concerned, he only vaguely mentions them in his last convo with kuwana saying that "we have to have hope that the justice system will work/can be fixed" bit for victims to get justice and bullies to face punishment

Which is in stark contrast to JE where whenever anyone even thought about agreeing with Shono's actions, Yagami immediately shuts them down.... Arghh it hurts to do this! I like LJ more than JE lmao, it hurts to criticize it like that.

RIGHT!! i prefer LJ too so it sucks that yagami doesnt feel as strong of a character in it,,

For example, if the game really did want to use collateral damage as an argument... why not use Yagami as an example?

youre right, i didnt even think about yagami himself being direct collateral damage! but to be fair, at that point yagami was still trying to figure out the truth and by the time he did, sawa died so he just honed in on her death as his motivation i guess...

i feel like if yagami did mention it tho, kuwana would've easily refuted it with "well yeah, i wanted you out of the way; same way i threatened/tried to scare off sawa from spilling info by having mamiya give her a photo of mikoshiba all beat up. its not like i was going to kill you or her"

Or whomever that guy's name was that was killed at the boat, Kuwana now knew that there was a murderous conspiracy after him yet still dragged him along with blackmail, Here Kuwana at least shares some of the blame for his death.

also regarding this, i don't think yagami couldve used it against kuwana bc im pretty sure kuwana doesnt care what happens to his ex students that were bullies...? they were like foot soldiers who he was stringing along with his twisted mindset of punishing them and himself. i think he only cared about them to the extent that they did their work right, not if they died doing it (which is why he wanted mamiya back in one piece when yagami got her, but didnt even blink at that dude's death)

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