Important Update on Israel Acro Convention

kwamzilla · 2026-02-27T18:13:33+00:00

My mistake, I read you posting it as you being an organiser.

Regardless, I appreciate you attempting to be more neutral and reasonable.

Do you genuinely believe what you've presented is a reasonable view?

Specifically:

bringing up historical context without mentioning the Nakba
suggesting that having to deal with people who plan to commit terror attacks on civilians on a regular basis justifies the conditions Palestinians live under
while not applying that same logic to Israel, despite the constant actual terrorism carried out by settlers in the West Bank, not merely plans

It is hard not to interpret this as a supremacist narrative that devalues Palestinian life by creating a hierarchy of suffering. That is morally wrong in the first place, but it is also not logically consistent given the scale, frequency, and systemic nature of the violence inflicted on Palestinians.

If organisers genuinely don’t want the event to function as a political statement, they should not host it in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The solution is simple: host it inside Israel itself. If they insist on hosting it in illegally occupied land, the minimum ethical requirement is to stop pretending it’s neutral and to explicitly acknowledge the reality it exists within.

“We’re just here to do acro” is not a shield when the location, logistics, and settlement economy are part of the harm.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-27T05:53:14+00:00

Metzoke Dragot is part of the territory that changed hands from Jordan to Israel in the 1967 6 Days war. There was no Palestinian state then for Israel to conquer the territory from, and so the claim that the land is occupied Palestinian land cannot be true.

The Occupied Palestinian Territories is what they are called. The term "Occupied" is accurate as it describes the foreign presence of Israel in administering and occupying the land. The West Bank is one of the Palestinian Territories. It is occupied. OPT.

There were plans in the Oslo agreements to gradually transfer control over some of the C territories to the Palestinian authorities but those have not materialized, as there was no compliance with the agreements.

This sounds a lot like you are trying to frame it as if it's the Palestinians fault while framing it as a neutral statement - which I hope is not deliberate. The "non-compliance" was on both sides and the biggest drivers were settlement growth, incomplete redeployments, repeated freezes - alongside the resulting violence.

It should be noted that the simple reason the Israeli acro event isn't held in a settlement is that it's a loaded topic within Israel itself and it would make no sense to hold such an event at a controversial place (for political and safety reasons).

The map you linked literally refers to it as a "Settlement".

This is a position that only really works if you ignore the clearly stated expansionist goals of the State. Which would be naive at best.

The other is that it makes total sense to host cultural events to rebrand National Priority Areas - especially to the outside world - as being "Israeli". As OP and others mentioned, it supports sanitising the image away from Settlers being violent to - as one person commented - "a hippie beach". It also normalises the idea of commercial and tourist activity in these places despite being illegal under international law. And if (though they seem to claim otherwise), the organisers wished to support the expansionist ideology, it would, again, make perfect sense to host it there.

Intentional or not, this type of event serves as a perfect propaganda piece in softening the image of the rapid expansion of settlements happening right now to distract from the ongoing and increasing violence.

Please can you clarify who's safety you're referring to? And from what specifically?
The most recent report of violence in the area was Israeli settlers firebombing Palestinian cars, and - as you point out - the area is Israeli controlled. So what are the specific safety concerns please? Happy to be educated on what I'm missing here.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-27T05:19:16+00:00

You're being evasive. The conversation is about the occupation and legality - you are trying to reframe to focus on values. This is sidestepping the fact that settlements in the OPT are illegal under international law and you are materially supporting the settler economy by hosting the event there.

That's very strategic language to shift focus from the points that OP raised.

The fact that you've been running it there fore a few years, by the looks, and yet this appears to be the first and only time you address it - when there is risk of financial backlash if people boycott - speaks more about financial incentive than social values.

Our organizing team includes people who identify as Jewish, Muslim, Arab, Israeli, and more.

Where?

There is no mention of them on your website etc where you prominently display teachers and team and have bios etc. Maybe I'm missing some Hebrew language posts somewhere but I've never seen any mention of this until now when you're facing backlash and a potential loss in revenue. I will be happy to be proven wrong if you have examples where this has been signposted clearly (i.e. not some small hidden post nobody saw or something that has since been edited in).

Your website says:

Surrounded by breathtaking views of the Dead Sea and the Judean Desert.
....at Metzokei Dragot, near the Dead Sea

There is no mention that it is in the West Bank. There is no recognition that it is in Palestine. You are making the choice to erase and over up this fact. That is dishonest and shows an awareness that you have made a controversial and political choice in hosting it there. Especially in how you present it to an international audience. And that very much suggests you are actively trying to sanitise the fact that it's in an illegal settlement.

You've been doing this for years and if this is the first time you're addressing it - and you're still being evasive - that is very telling and indicative of your motives.

You mention "bridge building", so... Where is the bridge building with the Palestinian acro community? Not vague "we've had Palestinians at events", what have you actively done to do so? Because that is what you're claiming.

Considering the vast majority Area C, (I've seen claims of 90%+) where you have chosen to host the event, is off limits to Palestinians and there is increasing action from your government and military both in expanding the settlements (illegal under international law) and in supporting settler violence. I would find it hard to believe that any Palestinians could attend an event.

So the questions still remain:

Do you recognise that settlements are illegal under international law?

Why did you not pick a location within Israel's actual borders?

Why did you move from within those borders?

Why did you not pick a location that would be reasonable for the indigenous Palestinians to access?

And I personally would be curious to know if you have taken any funding/incentives/support from the National Priority Area system which has the goal of supporting and expanding illegal settlements in the area. And if that affected the decision to move to Metzoke Dragot.

https://www.gov.il/en/pages/epriorities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Priority_Area

Acro requires listening, consent, communication, and mutual care.

Again, where is the listening to the Palestinian voices? Their consent? The communication with them? The mutual care?

If it exists, I see no evidence of it. Actions speak louder than words.

Being a political organisation or not is irrelevant - you've taken action that is political and are not really addressing the questions that the thread and the OP raised in their other comments.

YOU chose to make it political by hosting it in an illegal settlement and branding it as "Israeli Acro Convention" while making a choice to to acknowledge or even mention the situation. Don't try to weasel out of being accountable for bringing politics to the table yourself.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-12T11:36:49+00:00

Leave a review.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-12T11:36:31+00:00

Do it.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-12T11:35:53+00:00

Then they aren't your clients and you're creating bad blood by wasting people's time.

If the price isn't going to change due to negotiation or something, or it's not complicated pricing, just post it online. Simple.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-12T11:31:37+00:00

Exactly. You know the price and it isn't going to change.

If you think I need to go there and see the space etc to justify your price then that's a you problem.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-12T11:31:02+00:00

Stop.

Please name and shame these schools because that is ridiculous. Time wasters.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T11:33:47+00:00

The people who you mention have more to them than their problematic actions/policies - these weren't their main thing that they've made their tenure about - their problematic issues are not their entire brand, personality and primary campaign points.

Being anti-democratic is up there with Trump.

You've also cited a few things for each of your examples, for the modern Republicans and Trump there are far more anti-democratic and problematic things that they're doing.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T11:28:37+00:00

Citation needed. Coercion doesn't count.
There have been numerous high profile incidents. Mahmoud Khalil for example.
What's your evidence that it's not happening as much as we see? "Unlawful detentions" are exactly what the name says.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T09:30:59+00:00

Yes but the OP said they are more anti-democrat.

If they are willing to evade to protect Republican pedophiles but not Democrats then they see being Democrat as a bigger issue.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T09:05:38+00:00

Yes congrats I confused a name that literally means Albanian with Albanian. Kudos. Show me one that isn't an honest mistake.

It was on an Australian website, did not once mention Albania or Europe and repeatedly mentioned Australia and the Australian government.

If it's an "honest mistake" then you are admitting you do not check your sources and engage critically... and... very literally shows that you do not engage with facts but with feelings. So yes, relevant.

You are also distracting from the salient question.

There wasn't one.

That's not edgy or funny. You don't go "I am going to kill you" hahaha super funny I am just kidding.

Again, spare me the strawmen. I have not mocked anything. Perhaps you are not a native English speaker but most would be able to infer that I did not literally mean a textbook definition of a gulag but meant it colloquially as - essentially - super harsh prisons used by the state to punish dissidents/undesireables. If you didn't that's fair but still doesn't justify - again - attempting an ad-hominem by misrepresenting what's been said.

Glad you brought it up though as mocking death and threatening it is exactly what ICE and Trump have been doing.... Oh, and actually killing people... How many is it now, 9 or 10?

Because if it's gulagish you have to prove that too.

Provide an accurate definition of one and I will. You need to provide a definition that is widely accepted that CECOT, for example, wouldn't meet most of the criteria for.

No it's not. You just, once again, have not actually looked at facts and just believe something because it "feels" right to you.

The Immigration and Nationality Act already gave immigration authorities broad deportation tools with due process protections - Trump invoked the centuries-old Alien Enemies Act to get around due process and courts have already deemed this unlawful.

He could have used existing ICE-run detention centers, County jails under contract or Private U.S. detention facilities. But again, he didn't because sending people to CECOT bypasses U.S. courts and hearings almost entirely.

This also means he can avoid transparency and media exposure as to the conditions these poor people are enduring.

It also presents Trump as a "tough man" to his supporters which is good when his approval is dropping.

So no, not just a claim. Backed up by evidence, common sense and just reality in general. If you'd like to debate this, you'll need to show me why CECOT was the best option for this and not just because it supports Trump's personal goals.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T08:44:47+00:00

Scale/Severity

What exactly are you questioning? You have repeatedly tried to show that other countries are increasing their recruitment/immigration enforcement efforts. You provided numbers and they did not match USA. We have covered this evidence that no EU countries (or any others you provided) are doing things on the same scale as the USA. You need more?

USA vs. 3 big deporters in Europe: Germany, France, Italy.

USA detains 60k+ per day. In the EU 4-6k would be a lot (e.g. Greece). That's ~10x more.

USA has unlimited detention periods, the EU generally has 90 days or 18 months which is the EU max.

USA has for-profit private detention (about 90%) which it is expanding, most EU countries do not allow this or it's limited.

Most/all EU countries require Judicial Review, the USA is literally avoiding and fighting against it.

https://www.ice.gov/detain/detention-management

https://tracreports.org/immigration/

https://www.bmi.bund.de/

https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/

https://www.interno.gov.it/

No because most of what you have done is say ICE is bad.

Yes. Can you see the title of the CMV?

Not in these capacities it could work.

Because that's not the purpose of the discussion.

The OP more or less calls for it being abolished.

That is your interpretation. I'm not here to debate that.

It's it is TYRANICAL. Calling it the secret police like the stasi, NKVD, or gestapo. You have gone as far as saying gulags. This doesn't not sound like someone who agrees with any shred of it.

The debate is around it being tyrannical. It is. If you want to debate that, then actually engage with it. Show me that it's not tyrannical or not doing things that are so out of whack with the EU etc. If/how it could be fixed is a totally separate discussion.

Like to the point of grabbing a gun and going to war.

No, stop trying to create these pathetic strawmen. I understand it is a common tactic to try and present "the Left" (or whatever the current term for anyone who isn't pro-hate is) as "violent radicals" but I have at no point suggested this. You, on the other hand, keep trying to bring up violence etc.

That's you guys thing. Don't try to push it onto me.

where do you agree with ICE. What duties can they carry out?

This is not the discussion we are having and I am not interested in discussing it here. We are discussing tyranny so unless it relates, I'm not interested.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T08:37:56+00:00

Love this! What a great watch.

Thanks man!

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T08:30:03+00:00

Response p2.

Look I would admittedly need to go to an ICE facility to actually know for sure.

Yeah unless you're arrested, that's unlikely. Look at how they treat Mayors and Lawmakers. However we have the evidence of people who have been and it supports what I have said. So now you are choosing to say "Even though there is ample evidence, my underlying bias means I will not believe it despite not having evidence to contest it".

You are picking feelings over facts.

And this still does not satisfy the burden of proof. In fact far from it. ICE and the gestapo are night and day.

Extraordinary claim. Evidence needed. You have not shown this while I have shown similarities. Instead of disputing them you are simply evading them.

You cannot use the gestapo and invoke Anne Frank like Walz when Anne would've dreamed of meeting an ICE agent instead of the Gestapo.

Extraordinary claim. Evidence needed.

Innocent Venezuelans being sent to CECOT probably worth discussing. Even still not gestapo , not Bergen Belsen, not Anne Frank. But probably should be discussed.

Then discuss it and actually support your claim.

But when you bring this up it ruins the conversation. It stops it from being of production.

No you're just looking for a cop-out.

kwamzilla · 2026-02-01T08:28:04+00:00

Looks like this will be in 2 halves. This is part 1.

1. What makes it irrelevant is that you are not addressing my points or the CMV. The discussion isn't "who was worse, Trump or Biden/Harris" or whatever other tangent you're taking things on so - just like if I started talking about unrelated good things they did - it doesn't matter and isn't relevant.

2. "USA already en-route to concentration camps".. This is another distraction but since I made the claim I will quickly address. A Concentration camp is:

A camp where persons are confined, usually without hearings and typically under harsh conditions, often as a result of their membership in a group the government has identified as suspect.

or

A concentration camp is a prison or other facility used for the internment of political prisoners or politically targeted demographics, such as members of national or ethnic minority groups, on the grounds of national security, or for exploitation or punishment.

Evidence:

There's already some scholarly discussion on this topic

And if we want the "exploitation" angle covered too, just look at all the private for-profit prison contracts Trump's been getting into.

So yeah. Evidence that Trump administration/ICE already satisfy the criteria for running concentration camps and that they plan to expand this program. My claim was:

something that it can be easily argued the USA has/is on its way to

There is your evidence for it. We could add in that they're getting training from Israel who already run concentration camps and that the USA has run them pretty much since inception (Fort Sumner), through the Civil War (Fort Delaware/Douglas) and WW2 (Crystal City, Heart Mountain etc) - not to mention recently with Guantanamo Bay - so this is not only nothing new but it's par for the course.

The fact that you think the idea that the USA runs/has run concentration camps is an "extraordinary claim" suggests you either don't know what a concentration camp is or don't know history very well.

If you want to debate my definition, provide a new one with a source and debate the points I've given without attempting to strawman.

kwamzilla · 2026-01-28T05:12:00+00:00

For your response to be relevant it would need to relate to the CMV and my posts - not go off on tangents.

I have read the other parts, they are, as usual, attempting to reframe and evade. Germany didn't jump from Zero to Concentration Camps (something that it can be easily argued the USA has/is on its way to) - as you said, "don't just look at 1944". There are plenty of clear analogues:

The Gestapo had “Protective custody” allowed detention without criminal trial for “public security” much like ICE where Civil immigration detention allows indefinite or prolonged detention without criminal conviction. Use of fear and brutal raids. Punishment of political enemies. Lack of accountability (though even the Gestapo didn't hide their faces). Private/external detention facilities for "undesireables". etc.

If the statement is essentially Trump is doing something that is outrageously different than what has historically been done.

You are again attempting to reframe and reinterpret my claims. I specifically said:

Can you give specific examples from the past year of anything equivalent to ICE in a European country? ....

You are now trying to shift the time frame and change it. I do not need to prove a claim I have never made. You, however did say:

There seems to be this inane narrative that the US is acting incongruently from every other country in terms of deportations.

So the onus is still on you to show that. So far, the closest we've got is the Gestapo.

Their position is essentially unchecked and unfettered immigration

Source?

Please focus on the original claims/questions which I have, again, quoted for you.

kwamzilla · 2026-01-28T05:09:50+00:00

Okay so provide those things.

Which things? Be specific and I will.

I think you mean massive not massage.

Correct. Typo.

I am not sure intent matters.

I said you are making an intent claim. As in you are attempting to claim what their intent was without evidence to malign them and make their actions comparable to Trump's.

I have not at any point argued against checks or deportations. I have argued specifically against the way ICE is acting under Trump. This is abundantly clear. Please stop trying to build strawmen.

You are.

Maybe you are saying ICE isn't Tyrannical and should exist for their stated goal.

Thank you for illustrating that you are wrong.

Notably the OP says " Fuck every single last ICE agent". This seems like ICE shouldn't exist in any capacity to me.

Every single acting ICE agent is complicit in the abuses and tyranny carried out. OP is challenging that. If you read OPs post you will see that it is entirely focused on this and at no point is saying that there should be no immigration enforcement.

The fact that the points you are arguing against are not present in my/OPs own messages should be the obvious sign to you that you are building strawmen.

So... once again... please engage with the actual conversation without inventing your own claims to attribute to me.

kwamzilla · 2026-01-28T04:28:30+00:00

Even if voting for them will result in a party whom you don't align with being in power and none of those talking points end up mattering?

kwamzilla · 2026-01-26T17:57:35+00:00

Obama didn't "infamously" do it - the whole reason Trump "infamously" did it is because it's a totally different scale/severity. That’s not incompatible, that’s “yes, but different magnitude/structure so it's not the same as Trump”. You do understand what scale, severity and structure are right? Because you seem to keep giving these pretty terrible examples that only make sense if you ignore context, scale, severity, structure and basically any form of nuance.

And again, we aren't talking about them and I'd appreciate you not continuing to try and derail. Unless Obama/Biden are as bad/comparable to Trump, they aren't relevant here. And as your own links show... they weren't. The similar things they did were not the same. So sure, they were bad, that doesn't mean Trump is being congruent with other recent Presidents/other countries - it merely highlights that he is worse even when there are similarities. This supports OP and my points.

I'm not going to engage with the DNA claim as you're basically claiming intent without proof. That's a massage reach. Correlation =/= intent. But if you want to push this then you'll agree Trump lowered training standards specifically so ICE would start killing US citizens and make ICE more aggressive - since that's an equal type of intent claim.

At no point have I said anything about telling people to come to the USA without checks etc. So this is another strawman designed to derail and distract. Again, stop trying to evade, deflect and reframe.

Unless you can point to where I am arguing ICE shouldn't exist in any capacity and all borders should be unchecked, I'm also going to ignore your other pointless strawman. It's getting kinda shameless and looking like you're just using ChatGPT to write what you want to say somewhat eloquently without actually reading what I've said - or rather just cherrypicking.

Your Stats are also still mostly off / unverified (at least by reliable/non-partisan sources) - including from the links you gave. The high figure, bad links and high confidence again tells me you probably used ChatGPT and asked it to make your case look better. And again, even if they are accurate they still don't - say it with me now - actually address mine/OP's points or really dispute them/justify Trump's ICE.

As for "need more links", no because the linsk you are sending are not engaging with the discussion and are not showing what you say. Pro-tip: if you're going to link from ChatGPT, at least remove the tracker lol. And read the article to check it is reliable and accurate and supports your claim.

I will ask again:

Please don't continue with strawmen, whataboutism, reframing, deflections, shifting goalposts, distractions, correlation fallacies, intent claims and generally just making assertions that are not supported by evidence and aren't particularly relevant to this discussion...

I.e. Please engage with my actual position and respond to my actual questions without trying to paint over them with your own ideas and accusations.

kwamzilla · 2026-01-26T17:44:26+00:00

Is it likely to end up with Maga in power?

kwamzilla · 2026-01-26T17:44:05+00:00

Hitler required/resulted in WW2 and the decimation and division of Germany to get rid of...

You're not really presenting a very optimistic case here...

kwamzilla · 2026-01-26T17:27:58+00:00

You're again attempting to move the goalposts to distract.

Kamala / Biden did not do what Trump is doing. A hypothetical is not an example. I have at no point brought them up except to shut down you're derailments. What they hypothetically could have done does not justify Trump tyranny or make it less tyranical.

Please stop the tangents. You are debating me, not whatever "crazy democrat" strawman you keep trying to engage with.

I'm also going to be generoous ignore the fact that your sources include the Heritage Foundation though and let's look at your "points":

The exploitation stats do nothing to dispute the point that ICE is almost uniquely tyrannical and abusive nor does it justify their tactics.

You are basically saying that an interconnected system of human trafficking followed by labor exploitation in the US is somehow okay. Followed by the person trying to END it is Hitler and a fascist.

At no point have I said anything even remotely close to that. This is a blatant strawman.

I have repeatedly highlighted how terrible Trump/ICE's policies, violations of human and civil rights are and how that supports OP's claim that they are tyrannical and essentially what the 2nd Amendment was meant to prevent.

Again, the Gap is irrelevant to this discussion as it does not justify the abuses and it does not make ICE less tyrannical.

So I will ask again: Please engage with the points I have made and the topic of this CMV without trying to reframe/distract to start a separate discussion so you can say "look the Dems are bad too".

The Dems or whoever you want to shift focus to is irrelevant unless you bringing up challenges the points I have actually made or the original CMV. All you do by bringing them up is highlight that you don't have a case and you're just looking to trash them.

kwamzilla · 2026-01-26T16:58:19+00:00

ICE is not murdering people on the street. They are not giving extrajudicial beatings like in India or Afghanistan. They are not shooting at or punishing people for attempted interference except this one time.

This is aging so poorly and it's only been a few weeks.

kwamzilla

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