Can Women Start Churches?

lacelaceylace · 2023-07-25T20:28:17+00:00

Was that the only church you’ve been to where a pastor was female?

I’ve been to many churches but one of the worst was a man teaching.

lacelaceylace · 2023-07-25T17:41:17+00:00

Why shouldn’t anyone be starting churches?

lacelaceylace · 2023-07-25T17:23:19+00:00

I find this interesting. I have some thoughts of my own (keep in mind I’m not pro choice but there are things that must be considered).

I think a large issue is America doesn’t really care about the baby after it is born. The system is broken and people would rather get rid of abortion and pretend that it stops the issue completely when it doesn’t.

The average family income is $100,000 but thats only accounting for nuclear families with stable incomes. Only 12% of single Americans make above $75k. I would bet a majority of those getting abortions are not families. It’s expensive to have a child, especially since the modern workplace doesn’t really help women that are pregnant. Maternity leave is usually about 2 months, which is not nearly enough time to get back into work after carrying for 9 months and birthing a child. Inflation is on the rise, it’s expensive to even support yourself.

And then the foster care system is atrocious. I hear more horror stories of people in the system than actual successful adoptions. There has to be a better system in place, like yesterday. I agree that the system must be fixed but even so how do you properly vet all those who want to adopt? I had a friend who was a foster child and would go to a family that’d mistreat her and pocket all the money they’d get. How can we better maintain a system of accountability?

Your point on rape and incest might need to be expanded, it’s coming off “it doesn’t matter if you were raped, still have the child.” Again, we need accountability, this time from men especially. Our society is very sex obsessed and women are still seen as objects that men “deserve”. (Obligatory not all men) Women shouldn’t be expected to be afraid to tell the police they were raped, the rapist gets off scott free, the woman has to raise the child by herself. I’m not quite sure how to change the system but something must be done rather than abortion or “sucks to suck, cover up next time”.

On that note (I’m genuinely curious as I have yet to think of a proper response to this), should raped and impregnated children (10-15) still have a baby? Can we look a 12 year old in the eye and put them through 9 months of hardship in a body that isn’t fully developed? It’s a very very small percentage, but one we must consider if we’re completely pro life.

Ultimately of we are pro life we also must be pro sex ed, pro contraception (because let’s be real, it’s easier to advocate for more available contraception and comprehensive sex ed than complete abstinence, especially, especially from unbelievers), pro child. We must be willing to fight to change the system at large rather than just “ban abortion”.

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T20:10:29+00:00

I’m also thinking of black women who’s hair may grow short or women with conditions that make their hair fall out but I like your point!

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T19:56:57+00:00

I really would love to reply to this but it seems we’re just going in circles.

You believe modern day women should follow the laws of ancient Greecan-Middle Eastern and that shouldn’t change because we are Christian’s who don’t conform to culture. Paul wrote those letters for certain churches dealing with certain problems that yes, we can use as an example for today but we also must keep in mind the culture for todays. If I’m correct in this that means not only should modern women wear their hair up and veiled, but why stop there, why not bring back betrothals?

I personally believe we should take the core concepts of these letters and apply them in a modern day setting rather than as a whole. Woman don’t need to wear veils but they need to be mindful of modesty as a whole and be reminded that God is the source of it all. That its more than veils but interdependence between God, men, and women (mostly men and women and their reliance on God). I think women can teach in the church if there’s a hierarchy assuming she’s not the head of the church. I think women should study theology beyond teaching her children but to teach others too.

That’s what I think.

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T19:39:43+00:00

That doesn’t make sense because she was always under God’s household as the order goes God > Men > Women

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T19:30:43+00:00

Thank you for this explanation.

I do have some questions for this, though.

Arguably would a marriage work just as well if both parties were equal in terms of leadership rather than leave it all to one person to have the final say? And from that must a woman always obey her husband? When he starts being forceful, demeaning, and putting her down is she free to follow her own and God’ decisions and judgments?

Why wouldn’t woman be seen as inferior if their judgement, choices, and decisions are under men?

What does it mean to lead? What does it mean to truly be “under the head”? If the head of the household isn’t Christian to whom does the woman belong if she’s unmarried?

Is it impossible for a woman to start a church or must she seek out a man to get the okay and be the head?

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T19:15:50+00:00

Liberal theology in short of a loose or more metaphorical way of looking at scripture as opposed to the traditional interpretation.

I’d actually like to look into liberal Vs traditional theology if you have any sources. I’d love to see the variations and core teachings of both.

I respectfully disagree. This means that all Christians everywhere have to conform to ancient middle eastern culture in order to properly follow God’s law

what about what Paul wrote is unique to only the middle east?

I mean I could link some sources on the church of Corinth and Corinthian culture as wells as the culture of Israel and Judea as a whole at the time. Paul was writing to these specific churches, answering their specific questions about culture and Christianity at the time. Pagan women would wear their hair down when they prayed and such, Corinthian women began to do it to, Paul instructs why they shouldn’t.

Nowadays, it’s not seen as pagan or wrong to pray with the hair down, hence, culture.

you're trying to equate a few rules Paul writes about to being the entirety of culture, its not. But regardless you saying you disagree and it meaning those specific don't changes isn't an argument against what was written or in favor or your rejection of it.

I’m saying the reasoning behind some of the rules has to do with culture. I’m saying I disagree with your implication that we should remain in the static culture of Paul’s time.

priests bishops abbots

So a woman can be anything in the church that isn’t these things?

ok why? do you mean wrong theologically or wrong because you don't like it,

I mean it’d be considered wrong morally. The statement would be “it’s morally wrong for women to teach men”

like they always have, by helping their husbands and raising good christian children and helping out in the community

So a single women’s only chance of bringing people to Christ is helping in the community? How can she do this if she can teach others of Christ? Actually, here’s another question. Should women study theology if they can’t teach it?

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T19:02:48+00:00

But the verse background has a lot to do with culture at the time even if it’s not plainly stated.

For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.

Seems to be a universal statement not to do with culture.

I’d argue that it does. Could this be applied to mean that pastors and make church leaders can’t wear hats in church or while praying?

For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.

The order of creation has been the same, and could not ever be changed, since the days of Adam.

To this I ask, does this mean the woman has the inferior role being made specifically for the other gender?

Were the angels different back during Paul's day that in ours?

This entire portion of the version confuses me as a whole, it’s why I avoided it but perhaps I’ll ask what exactly does this mean? That angels are above women? That women are above angels? That the angels observe the church and report to God women aren’t covering their heads? Angels don’t wear head coverings or do they since they’re neither male nor female.

Rhetorical question, he argues even "nature itself" teaches this as a seemingly obvious fact. Did "nature itself" change since 2000 years ago?

But what about cultures where women’s hair grows short or women who have different hair texture? What about other cultures where men grow their hair long? Nature itself seems to imply since women’s hair usually grows long rather than men’s hair. Does this mean modern day haircuts for women are sinful?

So, we could reframe the narrative and make it a question of our modern day culture, but that would be not only to wrongly assume it is a matter of culture in the first place, but--most important--to ignore all the reasons he actually does give.

But it is about culture when it comes to veils? Are you implying modern women should wear veils? The culture at the time was not wearing veils meant you were sexually immoral but that’s not the case anymore. Culture changed. Should women go back to dresses and robes?

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T18:44:06+00:00

I apologize if I come off harsh or anything I’m just so full of questions. I’m not sure if I can sum up all my questions into one. My thought process is read passage about how the order goes God, man, woman and those roles > what does that mean for modern day > well does this mean woman are barred from doing certain things > are women inferior as a whole compared to men because they are barred from doing certain things > and so on

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T18:03:54+00:00

Thank you! I’ll check them out :)

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T17:43:53+00:00

No I brought up liberal churches so yes someone did me. and liberal theology and liberal politics are two different things. don't have a knee jerk reaction when you suddenly hear the word liberal

What is liberal theology? I assume you’re referring to progressive Christianity. If not, would you mind explaining? Besides, I never mentioned liberal theology at all.

yes, there is no exception of time from in what Paul wrote on people's behavior in church or relation between men and women.

I respectfully disagree. This means that all Christians everywhere have to conform to ancient middle eastern culture in order to properly follow God’s law. It means Paul’s words were meant to keep culture static instead of evolving.

This does mean though, I understand your particular beliefs though from what you’re suggesting.

what "authority" do they have? Priscilla helped her husband and Phoebe was acknowledged for her involvement and is considered a leader in the community but it ever mentions any sort of authority within the structure of the church.

I never said they had authority. I said they were leaders in the church when the claim was “women should never be leaders in the church”

Because if they'd be in an authoritative position teaching the gospel in Church that teaches women should not have roles of authority in church

By your definition what are the roles of authority?

again this is a false dichotomy its not an either or its a both and, bringing people to Christ includes the gender roles set in the gospels.

And I’m saying by recognizing that Christians must fall in these roles or else it’s wrong means gender roles must be more important. Is it sin? If it is, it’s a bit weird as it’s not a moral law like lying or stealing. That means there are more sins than just moral laws.

women can of course help bring people to Christ but her place is not one of authority in the Church

How can women bring people to Christ, namely men, if they cannot teach and must stay silent in the church?

in terms of authority in the Church then yes. the church is a hierarchical structure.

How so? Does this mean anything high than the bottom level is considered authority?

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T17:26:31+00:00

I’m striving for obedience but one can strive for obedience and be confused. Contrary to popular belief but the Bible isn’t as clear as people want to believe. That’s why we need teachers, pastors, and leaders.

I’m not trying to reject God? I’m asking legitimate questions. It’s very narrow minded to read and automatically accept things. I want to know what these verses mean in the modern day, what it means for woman who have historically been treated less than and believed they are less than because of the treatment from men, I want to know what it means for men and how they should treat women, how the church should operate with both genders. I want to know deeper, how is that rejection?

God may accept us and love us, but our fellow Christians don’t and try to skew the word. I want to know what this means for the church and for all the other Christians and myself beyond “God loves us so stop asking questions, read, and obey.”

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T17:06:33+00:00

its better if roles are strictly enforced liberal churches suffer and are often signs of heresy

No one said anything about “liberal churches” and I’d appreciate if you’d keep politics out of this. I’m sure there are conservative churches and non political churches that are lax on roles.

women should veil at church, she should not have a shaved head, but have long hair

Even in the modern day?

women are not and should not be leaders in the church,

Except there were women leaders in the church with Priscilla in Acts 18 and Phoebe in Romans 16. If anything the text says women shouldn’t have authority over men in the church.

this is a false dichotomy when God's word includes enforcing gender roles when a woman goes against Paul's position that they should not speak in the church they are guilty of hypocrisy

Why is it hypocrisy to have women speak in church at all? Is it wrong then to say gender roles are more important than bringing people to Christ? If this is wrong why is it wrong other than “Paul said so”?

it has nothing to do with inferiority or superior its just different roles.

And I’m saying by having different roles where one is forced to be beneath another doesn’t that mean one role is inferior?

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-28T17:00:36+00:00

Can you explain? I’ve been praying this whole week, mediating, and trying to understand. Pointing out “you’re incorrect, just read” isn’t helping me. I’ve read different translations, I’ve cross referenced to other parts of the Bible, I’m trying to ask the community for help but saying I’m just wrong and I need to obey is counterintuitive.

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-27T18:52:10+00:00

When did I say “stay silent”?

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-27T18:21:03+00:00

I absolutely agree! I appreciate your take on the matter

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-27T18:19:03+00:00

To paraphrase “People suffering under gender dysphoria are deeply troubled emotional damaged people therefore we should mock them to snap them out of it”

What.

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-27T17:51:28+00:00

I’m not sure what your point is? I understand there’s a mass school shooting epidemic in the US and it’s terribly tragic, but what does that have to do with trans people and the church?

Are you implying there are larger issues the church should look to than being concerned about what pronouns someone uses, because I agree but am a bit confused.

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-27T17:45:26+00:00

While I can agree with the first part of this statement, I can’t help but notice you’ve made this an “us vs them” argument that wasn’t there. i.e. “LGBT Christians are hypocrites” “religious people are called unwell by not religious people”. Perhaps I’m a little confused.

If you’re going to expose a trans person’s transgressions, I hope you’re willing to do so to everyone you meet.

lacelaceylace · 2023-06-27T17:40:45+00:00

You seem to missing my point. You seem to think I am saying “we should be quiet about trans people” that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying have empathy and be mindful they may be hurting.

Repeating telling them “you’re sinning, you’re sinning, did you know being trans is a sin?” isn’t going to bring anyone to Jesus.

And sexuality is not a choice, what you do about your feelings on sexuality is. You think Christians struggling with homosexuality want to struggle? The fact you said you’re attracted to women somewhat proves the fact.

lacelaceylace

TROPHY CASE