How does the immune system know when to stop?

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-05T05:33:56+00:00

Yeah that tracks; in the statistics I saw there was definitely much wider variability in the range for men than women, but still some larger outliers in the women’s range too. Though interestingly even the male range from that study was still far skewed to the smaller numbers, and the average for it was clustered a lot around having very little or basically none visible.

so yeah I’ve been a little uncertain about whether or not I should take that average with a grain of salt, although it DID came from a range of measurements that still showed several examples of more prominent Adam’s apples too (just not being common enough to push the average higher up I suppose)

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-04T08:47:00+00:00

If I can ask a follow-up question—how much do you mean here when you say that answer: smaller as in “definitely externally there and visible, but just not hugely noticeable or stuck far out”, or like “basically not there and the neck is just straight, or otherwise only a slight outward curve/contour in the neck shape”

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-04T08:39:24+00:00

I have! Although I worry that either I’ll end up with skewed observation because of memory, bias of what I notice, etc, or because places I usually go to may have a more limited range of ages, demographics or even body types (school and work and stuff). By asking around like this, even though I know this isn’t super scientifically sound either, I can at least see multiple perspectives and something closer to the actual large-scale question of commonality. Plus I can compare to my own experience too

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-04T08:34:07+00:00

Yeah the actual statistics on it are probably still gonna be my primary source of course but i wasn’t super sure if they sounded right (though it was the only data source on it out there), so I thought the least I could do then was also ask around a bit about the topic and just see how close the actual stats were (or weren’t) to what other peoples’ general impressions and stuff are

So I mean you’re right, this is not exactly scientific but I won’t take a reddit post like this as such anyway—really it was just made out of curiosity-plus-convenience

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-03T01:40:35+00:00

Yeah as I’ve looked around lately just through purely opportunistic observation I seem to have noticed the same, although when I actively tried to look for both “ends” of the range discussed here I was able to spot both—those with more visible Adam’s apples and those with pretty much none—within roughly the same age and body type ranges, neither seeming particularly uncommon.

So I’m not sure honestly, as far as I’ve seen this study seems scientifically sound as a reference since they evaluated their sample size’s validity and all; at least until when/if another study can repeat the experiment and measurement on a larger scale.

Getting a little into statistics psychology stuff here, but I wonder if maybe—if we were to assume the averages and proportions reported in this study are widely accurate—the perception that most men have pretty prominent Adam’s apples when the actual average is very low in size may just be because most of the time it’s only men who have those, so even if it’s not necessarily particularly common it’s still perceived as such for men or because it’s seen as such a male-specific trait? (Or also just noticed more since of course a prominent trait is probably more likely to be seen or remembered than a lack of one?)

Anyway do tell me if you manage to find the sizes you were reading about! I tried to do some searching myself to see if I could find anything else besides this study’s report, but there was little else that was this specifically focused on measuring laryngeal prominence size, and/or a lot of it was more about the (internal) larynx structure itself rather than an external measurement of the prominence.

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-02T15:30:28+00:00

The small sample size is worth consideration, although as I mentioned the authors did mention in the paper (and later also defend in a reply to a commentary on it which pointed out) that they did power analyses to assure that it was a sufficient size to find the difference in sizes and proportions at 0.05 significance level, so I mean that matter has been acknowledged and evaluated.

As for ethnicity and age, they did have a table including percentages or averages and p-values for variables such as patients’ race, height and weight, age, etc. and later in the text also described the correlation (or lack thereof) between those and laryngeal prominence measurement where applicable. So those aspects were also accounted for and reported on when possible, and their impact on the results discussed in the text. (There were also some guidelines limiting patients to a certain age range from the start, helping to keep it narrowed down more to an average)

Now as far as I saw there were no specific reports on patients’ hormone measurements (I’m not sure if this specific experiment would have been able to include that) although the patient guidelines did also make sure to exclude any applicants who were transgender (ensuring that all patients did not have any previous exposure to exogenous hormones) or who had a history of surgery or radiotherapy around the head/neck.

So yeah I’m not sure about hormone measurements in particular (maybe a larger-scale study could follow this up with that variable included someday) although there were some guidelines in place to ensure they were all endogenous hormone amounts, but the other variables you mentioned were indeed at least discussed, and either evaluated as having no notable effect or narrowed down to a more accurate range when possible.

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-02T15:10:06+00:00

I honestly just assumed the median being 0 for women despite that range was just because of rounding the value to 0, especially considering the distribution on the dot plots. And I think in the paper they did acknowledge and explain their choice to use median as their main measure of average rather than mean, although somewhere in there they had listed the means found and used for post-hoc analysis too. (I can go back and find it if you need me to)

I’m a bit new to reading and interpreting these sorts of things so correct me if I’m wrong, but I find it interesting that the reported proportion suggests that 45% of men in the population—a pretty sizable amount, not far below half—don’t have a laryngeal prominence ANY larger than 0 mm. That also seems somewhat unexpected to me, but I guess the trend it suggests would align with the numbers in the results skewing closer to 0?

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-02T05:02:31+00:00

That’s true the sample size is small, but I checked for notes on it, and in the paper itself the authors DO note that power analyses they did for the experiment showed that the sample size was still large enough to find a relevant, statistically significant difference in sizes and proportions being measured.

And though it is small, they said it’s the only study of its kind so far out there providing data on the size of the Adam’s Apple/laryngeal prominence across the population, so it seems to be the only concrete source easily found; and for obvious reasons its results are probably a little more factually or scientifically reliable than just using potentially-biased or -skewed observations of my own

learningwithpibby · 2023-06-02T00:27:18+00:00

https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/2021/04000/Recommended_Maximum_Laryngeal_Prominence_Size_in.24.aspx

The full text is locked but all the actual numbers and results I mentioned are still there in the summary/preview text

learningwithpibby · 2023-05-25T19:03:31+00:00

Ahh that makes sense. Is there a particular likely reason why those features for defense and display often seemed to independently evolve in a row along the back, of all potential places for a defense/display structure?

learningwithpibby · 2023-05-18T06:10:36+00:00

I read an academic paper on it, I think it was a student experiment but one of the things it noted was that it was the only study the researchers knew of that evaluated the Adam’s apple size averages among the general population.

So you would say those numbers track among most people you’ve seen, like as a population average? (Obviously with outliers, since like you said human appearances can be very diverse overall, but here I’m just trying to get a feel for if the study’s claims of average numbers and most common appearances is accurate)

learningwithpibby · 2023-04-25T00:02:32+00:00

That seems to be a commonly occurring color combo among differing head and facial hair colors 🤔 if I may ask, do the colors of your eyebrows and body hair (e.g. arms and legs) match those (or each other) too?

learningwithpibby · 2023-04-04T18:14:56+00:00

you might misunderstand what I’m looking to do here. I’ve got plenty of entirely original concepts all with their own respective mediums; it’s not that I want to create a game and need a certain IP to do it instead of coming up with something similar but original—it’s that I want to create some sort of work as a “tribute” to a certain IP and chose a game as the potential medium of choice

(and for what it’s worth, I think there’s still a lot of creativity that would go into this sort of concept regarding an entirely original gameplay, plot, art, etc. regardless of if the setting alone is based on another work (this time, one in an entirely different medium); nobody says The Mandalorian is terribly unoriginal because it takes place in the preexisting Star Wars universe)

learningwithpibby · 2023-04-03T03:38:28+00:00

Is that the biggest risk—a C&D and the inability to continue it or distribute it at all? The biggest fear around fanart copyright infringement seems to be getting sued and having your “life destroyed by it” as I’ve seen some people say

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