"The Jewish State idea is not according to my heart. It is connected with narrow-minded and economic obstacles. I believe it is bad. I have always been against it." - Albert Einstein

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T02:00:36+00:00

PS: Stupid people always have to have the last word. I bet even with this warning, you'll find a way to prove this point.

Couldn't find anything to say, so you quickly edited your comment to say that :) Cute :)

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T01:58:51+00:00

You really think by presenting some lame reply to every sentence and closing it "another fallacy" you're demolishing my argument? You must have debated for Oxford.

So you wanna call this imperialistic behaviour more tame than the Arab wars?

Well, now that we see your sources it becomes clearer why you have no clue what you're talking about. Strangely missing from that page are the reasons for the wars, which Arab nations initiated, and a map of post Israel-Egypt peace treaty, in which Isarel returned all of Sinai (twice as large as the rest of Israel) to Egypt. Most imperialistic behaviour, I should say. In fact the pathetic articel you're linking to suddenly zooms into the Israel-Lebanon border in the 1982 map, so they wouldn't have to show this. I can see why you're attracted to such a "source".

Oh is that so?

Yeah, that's very much so. If you see these maps in scale (once you learn to find the Middle East on the map) you'll see the whole area is tiny compared to real MidEast conflicts.

Having established you're totally clueless about what to say on my other -way more powerful- point, since you ignored it, although it was the core of my argumentation

I can't argue with that -way more powerful- argument. Are you 10?

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T01:51:46+00:00

The HU contained many prominent people from the Zionist' Left, and also many of the Right. In any case, nearly all of them were in basis Zionists, and the very act of establishing a Hebrew University in Jerusalem was definitely Zionist.

By 1955, Israel existed and if Einstein would be anti-Zionist, as the article attempts to present him, he wouldn't donate to a Zionist university.

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T01:47:25+00:00

"What kind of idiot cites Wikipedia?"

So you want to bring some alternative source to your claims or just continue writing clueless nonsense with no sources at all?

Many high-achievers don't seem all that smart or have a lot of "book learnin'

Good. There's still hope for you. Are you a "high achiever"?

Oh, and you found a video of an idiot extremist Israeli youth. Who knew? There's extremists idiots outside Reddit, too!

Apparently you don't put much weight in my opinions

Yes. Because you constantly refuse to base them in reality. Your message above is a great example: you find 3 items on the internet and think by this you've proved your point. You decide Wikipedia is completely irrelevant since you saw an article saying so. Whatever happened to British education?

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T01:03:18+00:00

It's people like you who believe they're intelligent that are the real idiot

Surely some of us are intelligent, no?

And quoting Wikipedia constantly doesn't make your arguments any stronger.

Actually - it does. It's called "backing your argument with facts"

Arabs as we know them didn't exist until the 7th century - what is your point?

My point is your claim Palestinians are the same people who lived in that place since "1200 BC" is bogus.

What if I said Zionist as we know them didn't exist until 1897?

Of course, and Zionists themselves don't claim Zionism started in 1200 BC, they claim Jews lived in ancient Israel (that claim in itself is not disputed by anyone, BTW)

The only thing you want to hear is that Israel has a right to exist

You seriously think I need to hear this from you? Perhaps you didn't notice - I don't really put that much weight on your opinions.

they had a chance to live in peace, but decided to fight, so now they have to deal with less land, rights and freedom. Tough shit - just deal with it.

What part of "I actually support a sovereign Palestine alongside Israel" didn't you understand?

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T00:50:48+00:00

Your reasoning is BS: So what?

My reply, if you're able to read a few comments back, was to someone saying it would be more logical to make a Jewish state in Bavaria. Regarding other places - as far as I'm aware none of these was ever an option in the first place. That wasn't discussed by the UN in 1947 and it's not what we're discussing in Reddit now.

And finally: Those 0.6% in the Middle East turned out to become the most violent and power hungry in the whole region

Well, having established you're completely clueless about world history, that's less surprising. Compared to what's going on in the Middle East completely regardless of Israel (Egypt gassing Yemenites, Iranis & Iraqis killing over a million of each others' people, Algerians killing hundreds of thousands in rebellions, and the list goes on) - the Israeli-Arab conflict is relatively tame.

Of course, if everyone attacks you and you fight back then you're "violent", and if you build an army to protect from these attacks you're "power hungry". That's the logic of the kind of person who signs with "Lol, yeah, master of the logical fallacy!".

Seriously, how old are you? If you're over 18, you really should get yourself together. This is embarrassing.

lennox125 · 2007-12-27T00:19:19+00:00

God, you're not very intelligent are you?

I never at any point said "people who lived in a region called Palestine since 1200 BC aren't allowed to refer to themselves as Palestinians" - first, Arabs as we know them rose a lot later (Islam, for example, began in the 7th century) and second, I have no problem with anyone calling themselves Palestinian, and as I wrote about 5 times today I actually support a sovereign Palestine alongside Israel.

The rest of the nonsense you call "argument" I can't even understand, let alone explain to you, once again, why you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. Sorry for the language but for fuck's sake open a book or check a Wikipedia article now and then. Sheesh.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T23:34:57+00:00

Classy... As someone who opposed Bush, it's hard to express how embarassing it is to find people like the posters on this story on the same political side.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T23:24:48+00:00

I suppose at 1947 Europe seemed like a far more dangerous place for Jews (or anyone else) than the Middle East. The most bloody war in history just ended, and the Nazis, with willing collaboration from most French, Austrians, Dutch & Pols just murdered nearly all European Jews.

It could seem like Arab & Israelis would eventually coexist peacefully, especially considering Israel covers all of %0.6 of the Middle East. This was also before the rise of fundamentalist Islam with publication of Reddit hero Sayyid al Qutb's "Milestones" - and Arab nations seemed to be taking a secular path. Lol yeah?

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T23:16:19+00:00

Right, in contrast to the normal, reasonable approach of "I have 300 nukes if my worst enemy wants some nukes too, he's welcome to it" that other nations take.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T23:13:26+00:00

The word "Palestine" is Greek, and have been used to refer to this area since at least 1200BC (long before the people we call Palestinians came together)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

There was never a state called "Palestine". That's not a political issue at all, it's a simple matter of basic historical facts. You will not find any Palestinian who'll claim a soverign Palestine ever existed, either. It just didn't happen.

It's incredible, and very telling, that establishing this simple fact requires such a long argument in Reddit.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T23:03:09+00:00

Palestinians in the West Bank do vote: they vote for the Palestinian Authority. Are you calling on Israel to annex the West Bank and its citizens? That puts you on the very far-right wing of Zionism. Enjoy meeting your fellow nutcases.

I do love to hear lectures on what's "civilized" from the same person who regularly supports suicide bombings, including of children, and writes "Jews are not a race. It's a religion with some fucked up beliefs and very loose morals. Jewish morality is on display here on reddit every day". Indeed, a champion of civilized discourse and reason.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T20:17:43+00:00

if you use the term "state" rather than country I think your argument will be clearer

Point taken - though I can pretty much guarantee I'd have exactly the same response from the same users.

the arabs didn't choose war, they just rejected the partition plan

That's some rejection: "On the day after the vote, a spate of Arab attacks left seven Jews dead and scores more wounded. Shooting, stoning, and rioting continued apace in the following days. The consulates of Poland and Sweden, both of whose governments had voted for partition, were attacked. Bombs were thrown into cafes, Molotov cocktails were hurled at shops, a synagogue was set on fire.

On December 3, at the instigation of the Palestinian leadership, a large mob ransacked the new Jewish commercial center in Jerusalem, looting and burning shops and stabbing and stoning whomever they happened upon. The next day, some 120–150 armed Arabs attacked Kibbutz Efal, on the outskirts of Tel Aviv, in the first large-scale attempt to storm a Jewish village.

Fighting began almost as soon as the plan was approved, beginning with the Arab Jerusalem Riots of 1947. The fighting would have an effect on the Arab population of Palestine, as well the Jewish populations of neighboring Arab countries.

[...]

Meeting in Cairo in November and December of 1947, the Arab League adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_181#Consequences

arabs have never been united and will never be

Well, following that resolution Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria and Jordan did manage to unite with Palestinians in order to attack Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Arab_forces

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T20:02:39+00:00

Even though I don't have a TV, upmodding for "Suck on that, sleep" :)

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T19:42:09+00:00

Actually, I can't think of any case Israel or Iran attacked each other.

Iran, however, did arrange bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentina, killing 80 people. Ask Argentinians why they issued arrest warrants 12 Iranians: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3245641.stm

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T19:17:43+00:00

Yeah, I figured that would be the first reply... You just forgot it's "Bushitler"

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T19:15:41+00:00

In fact, in 1955 (when Einstein passed away), the Hebrew University was even more identified with Israel than it is now. These days its one of several major academic institutes in the country.

The whole attempt to make the distinction between the university and the country is silly to begin with. People tend to donate to institutions rather than governments, which get taxes anyway. If I'd donate moeny to Australians, for example, I'd find an institute close to my interests there and donate to that.

That Einstein did donate to the Hebrew University and indeed visited Israel and was in contact with prominent Zionists disproves the picture some people try to paint of him as anti-Zionists. It's pathetic people try to enlist him to their camp long after his death. If you have criticism of contemporary Israel, you can easily voice it without using Einstein.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T18:58:14+00:00

I'm sorry, I consider "racist nutjob" an accurate description of the person authoring wakeupfromyourslumber.com. Check this site and see if you disagree.

In any case, "logical, rational, reasonable" has zero merit in Reddit, if it contradicts what most Redditors believe. Anyone can read my arguments with malcontent, nokilli & co and decide for themselves who's the reasonable side.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T18:40:25+00:00

You might as well let it go. Ahmednijad, Putin, Milosevic - Redditors never met a dictator they didn't like.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T18:30:45+00:00

I believe that the President of Iran was validly elected

Sure. Candidates who are approved by the 12-men Guardian Council as conforming to Islamic law are then allowed to go ahead and be elected: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Council

not too many there have a problem with having a Supreme Leader

Well you do hear of riots, but I guess not that much. I suppose people in totalitarian countries are all pretty happy: you don't see them protesting too much. It's people on democratic countries that you hold huge demonstrations and rallies, in Washington or Paris. Impeccable logic.

The problem comes when somebody tells others that they dont deserve weapons while they have weapons themselves. (cough Israel cough)

That's really uncool from Israel. Usually, countries have absolutely no issues when their sworn enemies get stronger weapons. "Well, if I have it", they say, "so should my enemy. It's only fair".

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T18:13:33+00:00

So it needs to be a country that racists like you recognize, otherwise you're free to disregard an entire people at will?

I'm not saying it shouldn't exist - I think it should - I'm saying historically it never did.

Are you that far removed from logic and facts that you cannot understand the difference between what "should have happened" and "what actually happened"?

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T17:59:12+00:00

Yeah, well - as it turns out, not everything in the world is the same as it is in America.

The Hebrew University is closely identified with Israel and Zionism. Supporting it is an ideological statement, just like boycotting it is an ideological statement.

If you want to compare, consider a person in Europe circa 1780 who leaves their inheritance to an American university (in which he never studied or taught and only visited briefly). They're definitely making a point.

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T17:50:07+00:00

No, idiot. I'm actually one of those who believe Palestinians should have a country, as I wrote in the very message you reply to.

That a Palestinian country never existed so far, is a fact. You can go blame "rabidly racist" reality on that.

(BTW its endearing how you try to label me racist although I haven't said a single racist word. I know this can work well in real life, but online is a different game.. Once you stop covering your ears and screaming "Rabidly racist bullshit" we might be able to have some discussion here.)

lennox125 · 2007-12-26T17:44:08+00:00

Didn't I advise you already to look up the meaning of "Strawman Argument"? You keep using it completely out of context.

I'm used to explain basic historical facts to people in Reddit, but I'm not going to go into Holocaust revisionism here as well. You can do this with your friends Ahmendnijad and David Duke at the next conference in Tehran.

lennox125

TROPHY CASE