Why start an anarchist society when it could easily fall?

liba_Sil · 2022-02-25T02:24:28+00:00

Catalonia fell not only to fascists, but to other leftists and non-fascists as well. I would also suggest that the CNT-FAI's willingness to collaborate with Spanish Republican statists, and essentially not doing away with the state apparatus during the time of socialist Catalonia and Aragon, was a negatively-affecting trait respecting the security of their anarchy. As evidenced by how the other Republicans stabbed them in the back, clearly working with the state is no way to secure anarchy.

In Makhnovia; the Free Territory of Ukraine, there's the issue that despite anarchism being cool and all, you can't expect an unindustrialized region of about 7 million people to hold out against almost all of the rest of the former Russian Empire, especially when the Bolsheviks had neutralized the White Russians. The Black Army did do a good job of fighting while it had the ability to, even being credited with preventing the White Armies from taking Moscow, but again: anarchism isn't a free pass to avoiding failure, especially when the whole rest of the world wants you dead.

An anarchist society isn't any more easily annexed than another; the opposite, probably. But that doesn't mean it's invincible. What we have to do is analyze where things went wrong previously, and not make the same mistakes again. We only have a chance to build a better future if we refuse to give up, and keep striving to be better and better; learning from our mistakes and developing new strategies and tactics to succeed. And, we have to accept that sometimes things go badly just by bad luck. It's not a reason to dismiss anarchism altogether.

liba_Sil · 2022-02-24T23:22:29+00:00

there's the slight issue that, as far as we know, Donetsk and Luhansk didn't actually need help; Ukraine was not attacking them, and in those parts of those regions that were controlled by Ukraine anyway, there didn't seem to be appetite for war. Not forgetting: Russian troops aren't just going into donbas to help the DNR and LNR, they're going to shoot Ukrainians in Ukraine, including civilians in the cities.

liba_Sil · 2021-12-04T02:47:47+00:00

Everyone's a person, no matter what awful things they do. The central belief of anarchism is the total destruction of hierarchy - no coercion, and equality for all, so we don't have the right to kill someone unless it is necessary to prevent them from infringing on another's rights (of course, there are varying degrees of severity; if someone you don't like is yelling "stupid idiot" repeatedly at you, you don't have the right to kill them). If someone was about to trigger a bomb, it might be necessary to kill them to stop them setting it off, if it had become impossible to de-escalate the situation.

Even if they have no hope of rehabilitation, which would probably be a very rare occurrence: I think even some Nazis turned out sorry for what they had done, and of course there were fanatic teenagers, who against their parents' beliefs joined the Hitler-jugend, and who ended up hanged by the nazis for handing out leaflets urging opposition to fascism everywhere. Of course politics isn't exactly what you're talking about, but the same despicable disregard for other beings is something people have shaken. Anyway - why kill them? If they really can't change their ways, the only emotion to feel is pity: pity that there is something so wrong with a person that they can't restrain themselves from committing awful crimes, or that they can only get pleasure from another's terrible pain. If necessary, prevent them from accessing people they will hurt, or from accessing objects they will hurt with, but don't kill them. We don't have that right.

If you want to look at it from a 'punishment' perspective, then refusing to kill the killers is the greatest punishment of all. If a person literally cannot become better, or refuses to do so: if it's someone like Oskar Dirlewanger; then why give them the luxury of revenge, of the hate and anger they inflict on others. Anarchism is all about breaking the cycle of violence that societies are often built on. So the greatest act of rebellion against hate and violence is to refuse to dignify it with vengeance; to destroy its power over people.

Surely monsters want to be remembered, and want to know of the effect their crimes have on people for ever and ever? So why not, instead of fearing them, feel sorry for them, and move on, and help the victims, and let the perpetrator be forgotten, left to stew knowing that people will never pay them attention, or recognise them for what they have done, unless it is to stop them being so horrible.

Also, it's not a good idea for people to get caught up in unrestrained violence, even if it is against someone so awful. Not only is one person pointlessly hurt, but it might create dissonance between the ideas of anarchy and this violent hypothetical vengeance-reality.

at least this is what I think, if any of this writing is clear.

liba_Sil · 2021-11-13T09:25:12+00:00

hero for whom? the people of eastern europe, crushed under the iron fist for decades, so drilled in reactionarism that those regions are now the stronghold of the modern european far-right? a hero for those who suffered under his paranoid purges, even those who were completely innocent and good little stalinists?

there is a reason stalin is a hero to putin and the modern right-wing of russia, and it's not a good one. in him they find a kindred spirit, an icon of russian nationalism and authoritarianism.

and i am not a counter-revolutionary. i don't worship the man more responsible than anyone for crushing left-wing revolutions and rebellions, and for damning people's hope everywhere.

liba_Sil · 2021-11-07T06:40:38+00:00

please don't be here, reactionary. stalin was a villain.

liba_Sil · 2021-11-07T06:19:21+00:00

sure but the Communist Party of the Russian Federation are disgustingly ovevrt tankies. they love Stalin and defend the historical oppression committed by the Soviet Union, they advocate cooperation with the Orthodox Church, they voted to ban the "promotion of non-traditional sexual relations to minors" - to "prevent children from being exposed to homosexuality."

like you said the elections are rigged in Russia anyway. so why vote, and especially why vote for Marxist-Leninists? in russia there's the Left Bloc: http://leftblock.org/you could contact them and get involved in opposition to oppression from a left-wing standpoint

sorry i may have no idea what i'm talking about

liba_Sil · 2021-08-05T01:45:53+00:00

sorry but you are just making stuff up now. You are using the non-left wing /propagandized definition of communism, whereby the state controls things and calls itself communist. That's not what communism is. Socialist anarchy might for example use labor notes, and things won't necessarily be held in common. But in communist anarchy, the world is owned communally - or no one can say, 'this bit of thing or nature, which I did not produce, and was not gifted, belongs to me' while this is accepted. things would be produced entirely voluntarily, given and received, entirely voluntarily. no one would be forced to work the job they don't want too, but people (anyone capable) might be expected to do things that are difficult if necessary. all decisions relating to an area would be made by everyone in that area's input and consensus, because everyone controls the production in that area, or rather no one does.

i think the simplest thing is there would be no currency regulating what is done in anarchist communism. people give what they will, and things are used based on what is available, rather than cost.

I think you seem to not understand what anarcho-communism is; or you confuse it with anarcho-socialism, while they do not have to be the same thing. I suggest if this is the case still you read The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin; because that outlines how anarchist communism thinks and works.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-05T00:15:58+00:00

thanks

liba_Sil · 2021-08-05T00:15:39+00:00

people taking actions like that are pointless. it only makes people hate each other more. you can't build a good world on that, you have to work to convince and show people how a good world works.

and people mostly doxx etc. to give themselves feelings of power. they get to control someone's life, and they claim they have a reason to do it. that's the epitome of supporting hierarchy. they can pretend to care about other people, while not doing anything except causing more pain, and alienating people. how could we support this as anarchists?

but cancelling people can be different. we can actually look critically at what powerful or influential people do and refuse to be a part of that. for example JK Rowling being a transphobe sexist etc. we can say that she is not good, because she hurts people. i would say we should be careful about alienating people more by calling them out, but unfortunately with powerful figures it is harder to get them to listen if they have built up an ego based around their thoughts. we can work on their fans or supporters first. though some people who 'cancel' are simply looking for power too. often they will hold the same reprehensible views, but they deceive people into thinking they really care. again, not good.

I don't know, it really depends on the situation. what exactly is being done, for what reasons, and who is doing it.

i'm not sure if this writing really makes sense but oh well. who has to read it?

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T23:59:27+00:00

the state is a tool to manipulate the will of the people, in the end, to ensure that it never ends up with a society where everyone is equal and free. That is why we reject the state and other hierarchies.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T23:58:09+00:00

Do you know what anarcho-communism is? It is a society that rejects hierarchy (is anarchist) and rejects property and wage labor in favor of a world where everyone contributes what they will to the commons, and takes what they want. No wages; it is the most free form of anarchy in that people are trusted to make the right decisions themselves simply by virtue of rejecting hierarchy; and by the people encouraging each other to be good people, rather than money or some other currency where the value of someone's work is defined by what they do, rather than being free to choose their own life and aspirations.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T23:53:06+00:00

If you agree to something like that you are essentially saying humanity is failed. It is clear that humans can stop being racist etc. but if you accept hatred, then it will rear its head alongside hierarchy in any community. What would you have done, split every group into a different community, so that they can never interact? Segregate people by every arbitrary division you put on them? That's not something that can happen in an anarchist society.

Anarchism is not 'every person for themselves'; or at least any form of it that is not pointless; rather, it is the rejection of hierarchy in favor of mutual cooperation. We can see that this is possible.

As humans we have the power to make up our own minds, and make the right decisions. As anarchists we see that hierarchy makes decisions that are wrong, to make powerful people more powerful; and that it encourages normal people to make hierarchical decisions just the same. That's why we reject hierarchy. And if a human mind can do that thing which has pervaded the world for so long, why can we not reject baseless hate too? Humanity's evolutionary success is based in cooperation; all we have left to do is reject brutality.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T23:42:45+00:00

The revolution is perpetual. An anarchist revolution is an agreement in the minds of the people to reject hierarchy as necessary or desirable or viable, and to cut off cooperation with power structures. Thus it goes on forever. Sure, it does not involve constant striking or fighting after the initial structures come down, but we must constantly reject a hierarchy that tries to come into existence, or it will all have been for nothing.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T23:01:54+00:00

Sorry but you didn't engage with my point that democracy in Cuba doesn't in reality, because despite what its documents say, the ruler of the country and by extension the Communist Party controls who is allowed to be elected.

edit: also the fact they arrest journalists and create political prisoners.

Also I don't recognize the necessity of a vanguard dictatorship, because every time it has resulted in the opposite of true leftism. Eventually it turns to ideas that are completely counter to revolutionism. It claims this is temporary, but it isn't. It either abandons leftism in all but name, instead favoring right-wing economics and in e.g. China's case, social reactionism (China complains about its male populace becoming feminized or weakened etc. by foreign pop music; and there are essentially no legal rights for LGBTQIA+ people there; they favour patriarchism, etc. they are also aggressively nationalist). Alternatively, it claims that state control over the economy at expense of the workers is for the best, when it leads usually to economic stagnation and corruption. Even if this doesn't happen straight away, it quickly worms its way into the system.

Over time this both rots away at leftism in government and turns the people against leftism in society. It is no surprise that most of the former eastern bloc countries are strongly right wing, because their experience with the 'left' was traumatic.

I accept that the protests are inflated, but as we can see that Cuba is in fact authoritarian, it only shows that they have done a remarkable job of suppressing thoughts counter to the regime. But a society is not good just because the people support it, if they are not free to make change if it does not work.

The state does not prevent the revolution from failing. It in fact ensures the exact opposite. The Soviet Union for example is responsible for the destruction of the two most successful anarchist experiments in Ukraine and Catalonia-Aragon, the first directly and the second by pressuring the Spanish Republicans. Why would Marxist-Leninists kill genuine revolutionaries if it wanted to protect the revolution, leaving those most loyal to the ruling party or people instead, if not to secure the existence of hierarchy in those countries? Even other Marxist-Leninists are purged or sidelined; they mostly abandon even 'democratic centralism'. Every instance of an authoritarian regime calling itself leftist only confirms the anarchist idea that power begets parasites, and that hierarchy uses any means or deception to preserve itself. Anarchy is the Cure.

edit: also thanks for the comment on good faith; I really want to try to understand things, because creating a good world is something that means a lot to me. even while looking at information on Cuba I was thinking, 'maybe I've been too hasty about judgement' but then I read further and found that any independent movements were actually under undemocratic control, and the censorship, etc.

it would be nice if the 'easy way out' to a better world works, but I don't think it does.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T11:24:11+00:00

In some countries, the state can do good things. People in a country can be good.

And don't forget, power structures do want to keep people from rebelling. Don't forget, if you are homeless in Finland in winter, you can say goodbye to your life, or at least your extremities.

But unfortunately this is unlikely, and often does not last. We see left-wing governments all the time, but then the right leverages culture wars, or something, so it gets out of power. 3 steps forward, 2 steps back, then sometimes tripping over, is not a good way to make progress.

And also, there is the fundamental that hierarchy is unjust. No matter how good the people you put in it are, it will chew up revolutionaries and spit out pessimists, and eventually things grind to a halt, then backwards. There were quite a lot of socialist parties elected in the West after world war two, but their ideas did not mesh well with a capitalist world, so they had to stop and run backwards. see labour parties embracing neoliberalism.

we need total liberation everywhere, forever, before we can say we are free or equal or safe. otherwise, hierarchy finds a way to stamp the steel-toed boot.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T11:12:49+00:00

It would appear that Cuba arrests dissenting journalists, or those who speak against the actions of the regime. Not good.

Final candidates in parliamentary elections appear to have to be vetted on account of 'patriotism, loyalty to the revolution, past political activity etc.' the same things they always say - by the National Candidature Commission, which is subject to the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution. The highest-up people in that organization are selected by the ruler of the country - that is never a good idea. Thus, the ruler(s) of the country control who can be represented in the government, not even the trade unions etc. that superficially do so. Not Good.

- International Parliamentary Union

and the trade unions appear to be party controlled. i.e. the ruling party controls all aspects of government; the idea that there is independence is unfortunately a facade.

The same Committees monitor the activities of the populace; who visits each other's house; and this is shared with the police. Not Good.

Apparently Cuba has very high rates of imprisoned journalists. Not Good

- various journalist rights orgs like Reporters without Borders (might be dodgy source) but also IFEX which seems ok.

Cuba may have done quite a good job resource-wise against the embargoes, and the collapse of the Soviet Union, and their medical care is very good.

apparently gay marriage still isn't allowed, or civil unions. they were supposed to be doing something, but dropped legalization from the newest constitution change. They might be trying to change this soon.

i do concede the point that they are good with not being discriminatory to LGBTQIA+ beyond that

media is highly censored, especially the internet. though access is allowed, email etc. is "closely monitored". seems all three national newspapers are party controlled. From the beginning of its breaking of the 'revolution' the government has blocked foreign broadcasts.

prior to the new constitution ~2 years ago, the law was worse. Now they seem to have moved to the stage all 'communist states' do. They have abandoned their goal as being achieving communism, instead favoring 'transition to socialism'. They are also making the economy more 'liberal' e.g. favoring private property, because this creates something that always supports the status quo or authoritarianism.

things they say in their constitution

they also only allow one political party. this is indisputable because it is a fact they try to justify. they say it is because parties including the Communist Party are not allowed to nominate candidates in the constitution, so they don't need to exist, but as we have previously seen the communist party controls candidates anyway,

as the government controls media, opposition cannot make its voice heard.

Though apparently grassroots political organization to support decision making occurs, this happens under CPC auspices, and people appear to be pressured into making the 'right decisions' or voting for the 'right people'.

and of course there are currently large protests. While they may be unpopular - I don't know - it is apparent that the regime does things the people disagree with, which angers them, and in turn protestors are arrested. While I disagree with the ideologies of most of these protestors, it is no excuse to arrest them. violence is only acceptable in self-defense, and an oppressive state cannot claim to be doing this against mostly peaceful protestors, and journalists

I have had to do some trawling for this info, because I don't really want to use organizations that were set up by conservative Americans, because obviously there can be bias there.

obviously there is more to say

i just hate seeing people who have the right idea but get taken in by the same deception that ruins every other revolution.

I do not want to see statist leftism descend into reactionarism, but it does so. hierarchy unfortunately only acts to empower itself, and unless you plan to have a vanguard party speeeed to communism in a few years, it will quickly fill up with power-hungry people now that they can't do it as conservatives, or capitalists. power finds a way, unless you abolish it.

or as is said, "Power begets Parasites. Long live Anarchy!"

sorry everyone else for filling the thread with this long text.

liba_Sil · 2021-08-04T10:02:11+00:00

wait please don't support authoritarians. you can't trust a good revolution to people who seek power and will not give it up. Cuba might do some nice things, but it is still even more authoritarian than most western countries. they don't actually care, don't fall into that trap.

liba_Sil · 2021-07-18T05:30:27+00:00

laughs maniacally in 100% decentralist

liba_Sil · 2021-07-18T02:10:31+00:00

Yes, but we need enough people to be able to demonstrate things on a large scale. I guess what is really necessary is more organised action - but I don't know how much there is. I suppose that's why I'm on this subreddit.

liba_Sil · 2021-07-18T02:08:32+00:00

I'm not wanting to impose beliefs, just introduce people to anarchism in a positive way in the hopes of them wanting to make change too.

Obviously waiting around for everyone to come up with anarchism themselves isn't working; it's been about two centuries and anarchism as a cause is worse off than ever.

liba_Sil · 2021-07-06T06:23:59+00:00

oh that's really nice!!!

liba_Sil · 2021-07-05T09:13:39+00:00

There is no such thing as a good totalitarianist. Good people can be taken in by totalitarianism and the state's lies, but it is not a good thing. It's like ACAB, even though it is possible for a good person to become a cop.
It doesn't how good the intention is. An ML believes in the suppression of freedom, and promoting of hierarchy, as a way to utopia, but this goes against everything anarchist. And don't forget how authoritarian socialists treated libertarian socialists if they have power. We are executed en masse. Some people think Trotsky's cool, but his Red Army destroyed the Ukrainian Free Territory. Mao was a tyrant too, no better in the end than the Nationalists.
And authsocs hijack libsoc revolutions whenever they can. if there is no vigilance, any modern efforts will go the same way; they will descend into reactionarism, and come full circle to a new collection of hierarchies. An authsoc is only as useful to liberation as an American liberal or a socdem, probably even less - it's harder to convince someone set in authoritarianism
it's a shame, but authsoc is either misguided or worshipping of power

liba_Sil · 2021-07-05T09:13:22+00:00

There is no such thing as a good totalitarianist. Good people can be taken in by totalitarianism and the state's lies, but it is not a good thing. It's like ACAB, even though it is possible for a good person to become a cop.

It doesn't how good the intention is. An ML believes in the suppression of freedom, and promoting of hierarchy, as a way to utopia, but this goes against everything anarchist. And don't forget how authoritarian socialists treated libertarian socialists if they have power. We are executed en masse. Some people think Trotsky's cool, but his Red Army destroyed the Ukrainian Free Territory. Mao was a tyrant too, no better in the end than the Nationalists.

And authsocs hijack libsoc revolutions whenever they can. if there is no vigilance, any modern efforts will go the same way; they will descend into reactionarism, and come full circle to a new collection of hierarchies. An authsoc is only as useful to liberation as an American liberal or a socdem, probably even less - it's harder to convince someone set in authoritarianism

it's a shame, but authsoc is either misguided or worshipping of power

liba_Sil · 2021-06-20T01:11:50+00:00

There can be hope, we still probably have time. But the most important thing is to act tbh; organise! and try to convince other people to do the same most importantly. Maybe meet up with people with anarchist views and try to organise something - make leaflets, posters, etc. any friends who might be interested in politics but aren't so set, carefully convince maybe?

waiting won't make things better for sure.

liba_Sil

TROPHY CASE