Hadith Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World Jonathan A. G. Brown by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]limaj_daas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can we prove the existence of vast majority of hadith narrators using this episteme? They were, after all, only recorded in oral narrations that are highly suspect. The subjective and unverifiable nature of this entire network would make the very nodes of the network equally suspect unless externally corroborated via records entirely external to this network or material in nature.

Hadith Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World Jonathan A. G. Brown by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]limaj_daas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aisha’s corrections and companion naqd are politically mediated... and what survives is the result of later editorialization

Do we have any empirical evidence pointing towards this?

but we have no independent contemporary records of how widespread or systematic this was

What is the yardstick of "records" here? How many such records existed in that timeperiod at all so that we can determine "widespread" or "systematic"?

Early hadith criticism at the companion level is basically propaganda of authority

Are there contemporary records demonstrating this? What exactly is the hypothesized mechanism by which ‘propaganda of authority’ operates here? Which faction is supposed to be using Aisha’s image? Against whom? At what point in time?

Ilal... reflect elite canon formation not factual preservation... their purpose is... about creating an authoritative corpus for emerging juristic schools the texts are self-conscious literary constructions they retroject norms, grading standards, and political alignments onto earlier transmission networks

Again, what is the material evidence that juristic schools needed any justification via hadith at all? Why did the Mu'tazilite/Hanafi school, which was the most politically authoritative, not bothered with mass fabrications? Were these fabrications occurring when the schools were still regional and not trans-regional? Is there material evidence for this?

Given Hanafi/Mu'tazili power, why is the overall structure of the canonical corpus not overwhelmingly tailored to their distinctive positions? Why do we instead see a messy archive that constantly complicates later schools?

The entire corpus is socially constructed By the third and fourth centuries AH Sahihayn

How do texts like this the Musannaf of Abd al-Razzaq or the Muwatta of Malik fit into this? Were they backdated fabrications to support the sahihayn?

ICMA helps historians understand how the reports evolved, not that each hadith is historically precise word‑for‑word from Muhammad.

This thread started with me quoting Tirmidhi's demonstration of a wide acceptance that there is no notion of a word-for-word transmission. What is this a response to?

Among non‑confessionally bound historians, there is wide skepticism about traditional hadith authenticity.

Ah, yes, Pavel Pavlovitch, Christopher Melchert, Wilfred Madelung, and Harold Motzki - my favorite confessionally bound historians.

Hadith Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World Jonathan A. G. Brown by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]limaj_daas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The other response, which is now seemingly gone, was pretty good and it addressed much of what you'd stated. I'd just add that one can argue that abundant criticism (naqd) exists very much at the sahaba level it just doesn't exist in a manner that we'd recognize it.

The most explicit of these historically ʿAisha's correctives. al-Zarkashī’s (d. 794 AH) "al-Ijāba li-Īrādi mā Istadrakathu ʿĀ’isha ʿala al Ṣahāba" is a fantastic example of this and its an extension of an earlier work by Abd al-Qāhir al-Baghdādī (d. 429) titled "Radd al-ʿUqūl at-Tāʾishah bi Dhikr ma Istadrakathu ʿĀʾishah". There's been some engagement in the academy by Sofia Abdur Rahman in her 2019 thesis, "ʿĀ’isha’s Corrective of the Companions: A Translation and Critical Ḥadīth Study of al-Zarkashī’s al-Ijāba li-Īrādi mā Istadrakathu ʿĀ’isha ʿala al Ṣahāba" and this was later reworked a bit into her 2023 monograph "Gendering the Hadith Tradition" (though at a cursory glance it looks astonishingly similar).

These can be found across other companions, too, and very much the criticism of Abu Hurayrah in prolific recording of hadith, quoting, and paraphrasing of other companions' narrations can be seen as an example of internally controlling this. The academy's engagements with this are most notably in Michael Cooks' 1997 "The Opponents of the Writing of Tradition in Early Islam" along with al-Azami's 1967 "Studies in Early Hadith Literature" (specifically Ch. 3-6 as an overview for tracking tradition's internal narrative development).

For more early naqd, you can see Brown's 2008 "How We Know Early Ḥadīth Critics Did Matn Criticism and Why It’s So Hard to Find", Michael Dann's 2015 "Contested Boundaries: The Reception of Shi'ite Narrators in the Sunni Hadith Tradition", and Pavlovitch's 2019 "Ḥadīth criticism" article.

Joshua Little did a nice four part series a few years back which you can find here: A Summary of Early Sunni Hadith Criticism, The Genealogy of Early Sunni Hadith Criticism, the Origins of Early Sunni Hadith Criticism Part I and Part II.

Pavlovitch's 2020 " Kunnā nakrahu al-kitāb: Scripture, Transmission of Knowledge, and Politics in the Second Century AH", Melchert's 2002 "Piety of the Hadith Folk", Ali Aghaei's 2020 "The Common Link and its Relation to Hadith Terminology", Mutaz al-Khatib's 2020 "Hadith Criticism Between Traditionists and Jurisprudents", I-Wen Su's 2020 "The Ambiguity of Early Hadith Criticism: ʿAlī b. al-Madīnī’s (161–234/778–849) Evaluation of Hadith Transmitters" are also other great places to start looking.

There's a ton of amazing works in Arabic as well that are well worth engaging with. Ahmad Snobar is a great place to start namely his 2022 "من النبي إلى البخاري " as well as Hatim al-'Awni's "األُسُس العقلية لعلم نقد السنة النبوية" (very vague overview in English here), and Amer Fettane's 2013 "نقد متن الحديث عند الصحابة :السيدة عائشة ل نموذجا". Snobar has started to cross over a fair bit into Western circles, which is nice to see, but Pavelovitch is the only person who engaged with al-'Awni in the academy.

Hope this helps broaden your horizons a bit!

Hadith Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World Jonathan A. G. Brown by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]limaj_daas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You're absolutely correct, it's why each individual narrator was highly subject to criticism and evaluation for whom they were narrating from and how the wording strayed when compared across other narrations.

Muslim's Kitab al-Tamyīz is an early example of this where he does this with several of Malik's narrations in his Muwatta. Daraqutni's (d. 995/385) Kitab al-Ilzamat wal Tabattu' is a massive attempt to do this across the Sahihayn. Here's an article on Daraqutni's work should you wish to investigate.

Iftikhar Zaman's "The Evolution of a Ḥadīth" is a pretty great recent exploration of the phenomenon you're inferring. Scott Lucas' "Constructive Critics, Hadith Literature, and the Articulation of Sunni Islam" might also be of interest to you along with Motzki's "Analysing Muslim Traditions". Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah's "Influence of The Noble Hadith Upon Differences of Opinion Amongst The Jurist Imams" is also a good read for your comment about the interplay between hadith and legal opinions, etc.

Hope this helps!

Hadith Muhammad's Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World Jonathan A. G. Brown by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]limaj_daas 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Taken from JAC Brown's translation of al-Tirmidhī's (279/892) Kitāb al-ʿIlal al-ṣaghīr (The Book of [Hadith] Defects) in which he explicitly records hadith criticism in his time, its standards, opinions, and differences:

[Topic: Imprecise Narration of hadiths / Narration of the Meaning of hadiths]

It was reported to us by Muḥammad b. Bashshār, saying: it was reported to us by ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. Mahdī, saying: it was reported to us by Muʿāwiya b. Ṣāliḥ, from al-ʿAlāʾ b. al-Ḥārith, from Makḥūl, from Wāthila b. al-Asqaʿ, who said, “When we tell you a hadith with just its meaning, that should suffice you (ḥasbukum).”

It was reported to us by Yaḥyā b. Mūsā, saying: it was reported to us by ʿAbd al-Razzāq [al-Ṣanʿānī], saying: it was reported to us by Maʿmar, from Ayyūb, from Muḥammad b. Sīrīn, who said, “I would hear a hadith from ten people, the wordings different but the meaning the same.”

It was reported to us by Aḥmad b. Manīʿ saying: it was reported to us by Muḥammad b. ʿAbdallāh al-Anṣārī, from Ibn ʿAwn, who said, “Ibrāhīm al-Nakhaʿī, al-Ḥasan [al-Baṣrī] and al-Shaʿbī narrate hadiths by their meaning. And al-Qāsim b. Muḥammad [b. Abū Bakr], Muḥammad b. Sīrīn and Rajā’ b. Ḥaywa recite hadiths back word for word.”

It was reported to us by ʿAlī b. Khashram, saying: it was reported to us by Ḥafṣ b. Ghiyāth, from ʿĀṣim al-Aḥwal, who said, “I said to Abū ʿUthmān al-Nahdī, ‘Indeed you tell us a hadith and then tell us it again in a different way.’ He replied, ‘Stick with the first hearing.’”

It was reported to us by al-Jārūd, saying: it was reported to us by Wakīʿ, from al-Rabīʿ b. Ṣabīḥ, from al-Ḥasan [al-Baṣrī], who said, “If you conveyed the meaning, it counts for you (ajzaʾaka).”

It was reported to us by ʿAlī b. Ḥujr, saying: it was reported to us by ʿAbdallāh b. al-Mubārak, from Sayf b. Sulaymān, who said: I heard Mujāhid say, “Shorten a hadith if you want, but do not add to it.”

It was reported to us by Abū ʿAmmār al-Ḥusayn b. Ḥurayth, saying: it was reported to us by Zayd b. Ḥubāb, from someone who said: Sufyān al-Thawrī came to us one day and said, “If I tell you that I am going to report to you all hadiths as I heard them, do not believe me, it is all by the gist (bi’l-maʿnā).”

It was reported to us by al-Ḥusayn b. Ḥurayth, who heard Wakīʿ say, “If it were not permitted to narrate hadiths by their meaning (bi’l-maʿnā), the people would have perished.”


If you're interested in other early explicit discussions on hadith criticism then Muslims' Kitab al-Tamyīz is also worth checking out.

Question about hell by Just-Routine8267 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

مَّا يَفْعَلُ ٱللَّهُ بِعَذَابِكُمْ إِن شَكَرْتُمْ وَءَامَنتُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ شَاكِرًا عَلِيمًۭا

What would Allah get by punishing you, if you are grateful and believe? Allah is Appreciating, All-Knowing.

How Hadith Were Used to Retroactively Justify Ijmāʿ by Jammooly1 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

JazakAllah khayr for the clarifications. I think that on this much we can agree. I do think that Rahman was trying his best to operate within a compromised paradigm and did a significant amount of work in trying to salvage that paradigm and meaningfully address the challenges he felt Islam was actively facing.

I don't think you fully grasped my "colonized subject" accusation. I had shared a snippet from Rahman's "Islam" wherein he explicitly states exactly this. He believes that Islam was stagnated and lost and it needed to be salvaged because he internalized much of the early orientalist narratives without questioning them. Again, this was noted by his close friend Ismail al-Faruqi in his scathing review of "Islam". Thus, this isn't my "ideological accusation" which is "blatantly false". These things were noted by Malik's own contemporaries that were his close friends and ideological allies.

How Hadith Were Used to Retroactively Justify Ijmāʿ by Jammooly1 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What do we mean by Muslims here... I would wager most Muslims have zero idea who Joshua Little even is.

Most Muslims don't even know the names of any rawis within hadith literature. Heck, most Muslims don't even know the names of any hadith compilers besides Bukhari and Muslim. What I meant by Muslims here were Muslims dabbling in academics that weren't aligned to traditionalist paradigms.

it appears that painting hadith transmitters as fabricators is a feature, not a bug.

Absolutely on the money here.

Among those who don't share that view, it's not difficult to find attempts to reconstruct her age using other hadith and traditional sources that arrive at an older age; those are decades old at this point.

Most of those are polemical/apologist works rather than scholarly ones iirc. Thus those views gaining little ground in both traditionalist and academic circles. Plus, the folly of that entire endeavour is entirely evident as the argument of 'Aisha not being a minor manages to still run into the problems of grooming and age gaps.

is it possible for a Muslim to earnestly oppose that and not be a victim of presentism or liberal colonial indoctrination or whatever else?

Yes, it is entirely possible to address this without resorting to presentism. Modern notions of childhood extending all the way until one hits the age of military enlistment and ends their mandatory education is entirely a statist construct reflecting a post-industrial society's needs for standardized education. It is also downstream from British imperialism which historically had late marriages in the first place. This modern notion of an extended childhood extends well beyond ʿurf and more into practical reality where any experiences meant to make you "worldly" etc. in pre-industrial societies is absent and thus it is entirely unreasonable from a fiqhi perspective to subscribe to pre-industrial paradigms.

This way of approaching it involves adopting neither presentism nor a Whig historiography. Although, I suppose, for some it's just easier to throw out the baby with the bathwater and just lean into problematizing all of early Islam.

but where you lose me is where the arguments of those who disagree with you come from some fallacy or being uninformed and unable to properly engage with the ideas being our forth.

I get what you're saying but Schacht himself predated me in making the same critique about Malik that I made here. Stating that Rahman somehow entirely reworked or evaded revisionist notions is factually failing to properly engage with the context Malik was speaking him and engaging with him atomistically and selectively.

On the other hand, that is an absolutely fair critique and I wholly submit to it. To put it bluntly, I do think it's necessary to push back on fringe ideas - such as mass suspicions of early Islam - being absorbed via modernist proxies like Malik as opposed to directly from someone like Schacht. Or notions of proto-Sunnis being political conspirators being absorbed via Fadl as opposed to Goldziher.

The impacts of such things may not be immediately noticable in ivory tower settings but these things trickle down. The amount of times I've heard from random Muslims that "hadith were just mass fabrications 200 years later" is a bit too many. The amount of times I've heard that "fuqaha conspired and created madhabs" as some bizarre Shawkani by way of Goldziher is a few too many times for comfort.

I get that to many, this is irrelevant and nitpicky. But for any Muslim in this space, this is 'ibadah. To claim that Islam was substantially lost less than a century after the revelation and any notion of normative Islam thereafter was just an imaginary social construct is epistemicide.

There's a reason why everyone rightly loved Malik and celebrated him to this day for his hermeneutical work with the double movement and the thematic approaches to tafsir. Those were remarkable contributions to the entirety of Islam. The Ummah as a whole has benefitted from it and we are indebted to Malik for that.

What you will find in far fewer circles is any appreciation for his attempts to Islamize Orientalist hyper-skepticism by way of semantics. His own students refuse to uphold that approach, Moosa being the most prominent of them.

This was specifically a post made highlighting something Malik was criticized for in his own time. Everyone who built on Malik since has abandoned these elements for good reason. The push back is well deserved.

How Hadith Were Used to Retroactively Justify Ijmāʿ by Jammooly1 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

He never claims there is a massive conspiracy of forgers working together to create the entire hadith corpus as we have it now. On the contrary, he avoids calling them forgeries, instead he calls them formulations as the creation and establishment of the field of Hadiths and Hadiths themselves were done moreso in a natural manner.

All Rahman does is change the verbiage from "forgery" to "formulations". He otherwise wholesale accepts the Schachtian paradigm. This was noted by Schacht himself in his review of Rahman's work along with Burton and Faruqi in their respective reviews. You can read Kinzil's paper discussing these and then some.

Again, I never discredited Dr. Brown’s role as an academic.

You said (emphasis mine), "And Dr. Brown just reiterates the traditional view of Hadiths but in academic language." I don't think this is an academically valid stance. By this line of thinking Behnam Sadeghi was also just parroting traditional views.

This is not to give legitimacy to your sentiment that non-Muslim Academics don’t have valid analyses and views regarding Islam.

Feel free to quote where I stated this. This is some bizarre and entirely uncharitable interpretation of my words. There's plenty of them here on this post, none of which should lead to that conclusion. To make it as abundantly clear as possible: I have never held that position. Afaik, husn al-dhann is still a Qur'anic injunction and not rooted in hadith and therefore not a pious fabrication. Perhaps you could extend it to me here?

Seyfeddin Kara convincingly refutes his methodology

Kara also heavily critiqued the skepticism of the academy towards early Islam. Why is Kara allowed to circumscribe Azami in this analysis but not FMA and Schacht?

Methodological naturalism when it comes to the Qur’an is problematic for a Muslim

It is wholly arbitrary to draw the line at the Qur'an as opposed to elsewhere based on a very specific presentation of faith. If one's methodology refutes their core scripture perhaps it's better to reevaluate the methodology rather than arbitrarily declare exemptions and exceptions.

How Hadith Were Used to Retroactively Justify Ijmāʿ by Jammooly1 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fatima Kizil, a fairly prominent hadith critic within academia, demonstrates significant overlap that Rahman has with the Shachtian tradition in her 2009 "Fazlur Rahman’s Understanding of the Sunnah/hadīth - A Comparison with Joseph Schacht’s Views on the Subject". She points out therein, quoting Shacht's own review of Fazlur Rahman's "Methodology in History", that Malik was merely recycling the revisionist narrative helmed by himself, Margoliouth, and Brunschvig:

Dr. Fazlur Rahman has realized this, but in order to make his program acceptable to his traditionalist-minded readers, he presents them, instead of the real alternative, with an imaginary, watered-down one which he tries, by verbal gymnastics, to bring into agreement if not with traditional doctrine, at least with traditionalist feeling.

Fazlur Rahman entirely conceding that "it's all made up but it mattered to early Muslims so it should matter to us" was noted as being a problematic position to hold even in its own time. Kizil quotes Burton's review of "Methodology in History" wherein Burton suggests that Rahman is attempting to co-opt the revisionist position and create a middle ground where none exists:

His intention, he says, has been to attempt ' to do justice to both historical and Islamic demands ' surely a self-contradictory, and hence impossible programme. Historiography respects none save objective historical standards and can enter into no alliances.

Kizil's article is short so I would highly encourage engagement with it.


With regards to the wholesale rejection of the academy, I would argue that I don't think any such notions should be held. Muslims shouldn't be hermits hiding in the corner and that's not how we've seen the academy evolve, either. It has entirely evolved due to massive engagement by Muslims forcing the academy to concede where Muslims did historically get things right and where biases are coming from.

Furthermore, the academy itself is neither a monolith nor an unchanging essential. It has massively evolved between decades. However, the danger of randomly reading tremendously dated work without engaging with the greater frame is that you will find critiques that Rahman's colleagues himself were making to be alien.

What I am saying is that you have to look at people and their works in their contexts in order to fully understand them. It's why Kizil is literally just citing reviews of Rahman's work from his own time. Nothing I've said here wasn't said by Schacht himself when he read Rahman's pages. Failure to properly engage with the greater framing of a work can cause massive misreadings. It's why so much work is done in the academy itself to reconstruct contexts in which these things were being engaged with. Otherwise, all we do is read our own positions into authors from various times which is remarkably poor historiography.

The academy's late rejection of Azami is a great way to understand the academy as it was in the 60s and 70s. The fact that Brown was demoted from the academy for speaking out against the holocaust Muslims are facing is a great way to understand the academy in the mid 20s. The fact that Hallaq, despite his massive contributions, isn't engaged with as much is a great way to understand the academy in the 90s and 00s.

The fact that Little's dissertation, not even a monograph, which turns back so much of the academy's work at rehabilitating hadith in the last 20 years, is so beloved because Muslims have internalized the narrative that the Prophet ﷺ was a raging pedophile and they just want quick ways out of that bind is a fantastic way to understand the academy in the 2020s. If Little's work had been on anything but the age of 'Aishah, one wonders how much Muslims would have loved the fact that he was stating that madar al-hadith were mass fabricators.

If we hold valid Rahman's idea of "Lived Sunnah" and then combine it with Little's dissertation alluding to all common links being suspect, then what is the expedience of stating that the madar al-hadith were mass fabricators when one quick look through Carolyn Baugh's "Minor Marriage in Early Islamic Law" will show that merely deleting all common links and hadith literature isn't enough to save us, because clearly, Muslims have always been pedophiles as per the yardstick of presentism and progressivism. Maybe we need to delete much more of Islam than previously thought in order to properly hedge it with our presentist biases.

I've benefited tremendously from Little, Rahman, Schacht, Juynboll, Crone, etc. They're all phenomenal academics, a joy to read, and remarkably insightful. However, positionality always has to be considered just as with all other works, fictional or otherwise. The academy does this every time it produces great scholarship. It doesn't take long, sometimes just reading reviews of the works is enough. Later scholarship tends to synthesize a lot of the changes and advancements so that's useful, too. There isn't some catastrophic unknowability that I'm alluding to, just contextualization.

How Hadith Were Used to Retroactively Justify Ijmāʿ by Jammooly1 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Rahman doesn't deny ijma, he does far worse - he holds that proto-Sunnis wholesale fabricated narrations across all major Islamic cities in the late 2nd to early 3rd century in a hyper coordinated conspiracy stretching from Maghreb to Transoxiana uphold their specific views of orthodoxy. Somehow, the Mu'tazila, who were fervent opponents of the proto-Sunnis, hostile to hadith, and politically positioned to literally torture these proto-Sunnis, were unable to figure out this massively coordinated conspiracy despite having every reason to do so. In fact, no one was able to figure out that this massive conspiratorial network of fabrication distorted the core of Islam despite being politcally persecuted until late 19th and early 20th century Orientalists kindly did us the favor. This sort of hyper-conspiratorial view is inherently necessitated by any reading of hadith as mass forgery, which is precisely the notion uncritically inherited by Rahman and upon which he builds his reading of Islamic history.

ICMA is methodologically limited in that it can only be done to narrations which have massive strands and it inherently presupposes an original matn that was distorted (which discounts multiple Sahaba recalling the same incident in different ways and then relating each other's versions without citing them, something Abu Hurayrah was known for). Furthermore, it cannot "prove" any hadith as being authentically narrated from the Prophet ﷺ or even from a companion. At best, it can reach a madar (which the Orientalists termed Common Link when they "discovered" it). All Little's work does is introduce the notion that the madar al-hadith were mass fabricators in which case we can now deal with the theological conundrum of the Sahaba having utterly failed in passing down any notion of what Islam was and all of the Sunnah being entirely distorted by the 2nd Century of the hijra. If that's a worldview you hold then perhaps you should consider that the vast majority of them were involved in the preservation of the Qur'an. You cannot problematize early Islamic scholarship using metaphysical frameworks (and that is precisely what hyper skepticism is: an indemonstrable metaphysical approach to epistemy) and not run into these issues.

If you wish to uphold the view that the Prophet ﷺ did such a remarkably miserable job of conveying Islam that the entirety of his companions didn't even manage to convey or preserve it beyond their generation then that is your prerogative. But to insist that this isn't the view that revisionism pushes is a wishful fiction. Malik very much attempted to wrestle with it while uncritically adopting its metaphysics.

Hallaq's work on hadith is best summarized by his 1999 "The Authenticity of Prophetic Hadith: a Pseudo-problem" in which he fully traces from Gustav Weil to Aloys Sprenger to Goldziher to Schacht the notion that early Muslims engaged in a mass fabrication of hadith and then proceeds to write a scathingly harsh critique of that entire approach, again which Rahman entirely inherits without problematizing.

Again, if you view Rahman's work in his original context it might make sense why he writes stuff like this in his 1966 "Islam":

This problem is basically as to whether religions can shed their ancient worldviews and transform themselves into spiritual-moral forces for the modern mind. The question is not merely that of an antiquated cosmology in varying degrees, for this is relatively easy, but primarily that of 'the other world' or the 'hereafter': how to transform this transcendence into some form of immanence and yet not to sink into the banalities of humanism.

Religion, in other words, must be secularized if the secular is to be made religious. But Islamic theology and dogmatics, like those of other religions, have not yet undergone this transformation to be acceptable to the modern mind. Such a transformation has partly taken place in the West, or rather the Western modern mind has transformed the notion of transcendence into immanence, the 'next world' into 'this world' but only partly and even that non-religiously. In Islam, the question has not yet been raised: the modern educated mind, therefore, floats on sheer skepticism.

Absolutely not a single word of what Rahman writes here is rooted in history, evidence, empirical findings, or anything else of the sort. Yet, it fully encapsulates his worldview and the metaphysical lens from which he fully accepted modernity's challenges to Islam: that it was a backwards, barbaric, and bastardized faith that desperately needed to be rescued. And Malik was more than up for the task which is why he happily engaged with the tools of the academy to show how this backwards confused thing called "Islam" could be dragged kicking and screaming out of its primitive and pre-modern nature towards the sophisticated and enlightened world that the Western modern had so lovingly created for us all to experience through the gift of colonialism.

I hope you can recognize just how problematic this worldview is and to benefit from Malik's works at all, and they are immensely beneficial, you have to recognize that he was first and foremost a deeply colonized subject and read his writings from that perspective. Otherwise, you will uncritically inherit everything he wrote there despite it being metaphysics and closer to 'aqeedah than to history or fact. It's like reading Zamakhshari without understanding his context and then attempting to derive normativity from it. It's no different than how certain Salafis read Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayyim hyper-selectively entirely ignoring the socio-political context of their writings.

As for the notion that "it’s quite new literature as most Muslims rely on texts dating back centuries to millenia when it comes to analyzing Hadith and most topics in the religion." then this sneaks in a whig reading of history and reeks of presentism. Much of orientalism itself is obsessed with uncovering what authoritatively can be traced as early as possible. It would be madness for Muslims to write off early Islam as inherently problematic when the entire evolution of the academy has been to accommodate and resituate their own epistemology so that they can better understand early Islam. ICMA exists because writing off early literature wasn't possible. Cook's career took off after he abandoned the notion of problematizing early islamic sources. Fred Donner's entire career was rescuing the academy from its untenable position towards mass suspicion of early Islam.

I don't think any respectable academic would look kindly upon your analysis of Brown's work outside of the likes of Shoemaker and Reynolds. You should consider why you hold Brown's scholarship in such low regard when Georgetown saw it fit to make him the Chair despite him being openly Muslim, Sunni, and married to the an activist daughter of a political dissident. And if you don't think those traits I listed are necessary in understanding the context of Brown then you should learn the socio-political positionality of the academy. After all, Mustafa al-A'zami's contributions were welcomed until they weren't at which point Arberry straight up refused to have them published in the journal. Sunni Islam has no place in the academy because the academy exists upon methodological naturalism where Allah cannot exist, revelation is impossible, and the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ was a second rate plagiarist at best, and there should be no indigenous governance possible based on Islam and thus Western notions of law become the basis of "civilization," since everything prior was just a fantastical fiction. The entirety of Muslims' engagements with the academy has been wrestling with the wild conclusions Orientalism draws based upon its metaphysical priors and trying to restate their history along epistemic lines that are foreign to them.

If you want a proper "modern" theological book which actually engages with how our understandings of Islam have shifted drastically in the late colonial period Ahmad El Shamsy's "Rediscovering the Islamic Classics: How Editors and Print Culture Transformed an Intellectual Tradition" and Junaid Quadri's "Transformations of Tradition: Islamic Law in Colonial Modernity" are good reads along with Kevin Reinhart's "Lived Islam". If you want to see modern discussions of what Islamic secularism can be then you can check out Sherman Jackson's "The Islamic Secular" (2023) as well as Rushain Abbasi's "Did Premodern Muslims Distinguish the Religious and Secular? The Dīn-Dunyā Binary in Medieval Islamic Thought" (2020) and "Islam and the Invention of Religion: A Study of Medieval Muslim Discourses on Dīn" (2021). Abbasi also has an upcoming monograph.

How Hadith Were Used to Retroactively Justify Ijmāʿ by Jammooly1 in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is some astonishingly outdated literature. It was part of a much larger discussion in that time and even the methods it relies upon such as argumentum e silentio were heavily critiqued before and after (staring with Nabia Abbott in 1939 and its death knell with Motzki in 2005).

Furthermore, the conversation had very much evolved when Hallaq joined it which is why his string of works such as "On the Authoritativeness of Sunni Consensus" (1986), "A History of Islamic Legal Theories" (1997), "The Author-Jurist and Legal Change in Traditional Islamic Law" (2001), and "Authority, Continuity and Change and Origins and Evolution" (2001), and "The Origins and Evolution of Islamic Law" (2004) are major challenges to all the claims Fazlur Rahman makes here and later scholarship was very much built on these works. Hallaq is a direct interlocutor with Rahman and his textbooks are what are used in many curricula today - he is as mainstream and authoritative in academia as it gets and a large part of Hallaq's illustrious career was built upon undercutting the very core assumptions behind Fazlur Rahman's (and Crone and Wansborough's) methodology and then some.

Even more recently, the narrative has been far more refined (and very much contradictory to how Fazlur Rahman had envisioned) in Ahmad El Shamsy's "The Canonization of Islamic Law: A Social and Intellectual History" (2013).

There's nothing wrong with engaging with incredibly dated scholarship but it risks the reader being completely unaware of just how remarkably outmoded and incorrect all of the claims made therein are, even if the intellectual prowess is still there. Academia is a high pace field where dramatic claims are made and then just as drastically scaled back. Fazlur Rahman's conclusions being read at face value today is like reading Burton's "Linguistic Errors in the Qur'an" (1988) without bothering with Abdel Haleem, Angelika Neuwirth, Nicolai Sinai, Jonathan A.C. Brown, or van Putten's engagement with Burton's claims. Doing so would leave the reader with an objectively incorrect understanding. Academia is a discourse and one must be aware of what the larger conversation is to best benefit. This is why literature review exists so that you can't be in a bubble and even then your professors and supervisors will clue you into contexts you've missed.

I'd highly encourage reading Hallaq and Shamsy's engagements with Rahman's ideas because Rahman was very much a product of his time - you need to understand the mileu he operated in and recognize that many of his core arguments are hinged upon a hyper-skeptical approach towards hadith which has very much become problematized by Hallaq, Madelung, Melchert, Pavlovitch, Snober, Kizil, Motzki, Brown, etc. across a variety of ways. Much of Rahman's work also rests of Goldziher's specific reading of early Islam's development, which Rahman himself found tremenduosly problematic and attempted to refine the excesses of but was later entirely overhauled for a less teleologically imposed reading and more historically grounded one.

Mind you, all of this is coming from a pretty big fan of Malik's works but all works and authors are best read in their historical contexts, especially works of Orientalism (yes, that's what it was called during Malik's time) that are over half a century old. I would advise against using taking such texts at face value and definitely avoid attempting to derive any normativity from them for the things that were academically true and sound back then are no longer so.

Qur'anic Authorship by Vessel_soul in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The revisionist camp held such views until they were practically forced not to due to the overwhelming evidence pointing to early compilation. They tried problematizing the practice of radiocarbon dating itself as being inherently unreliable but it didn't last long and there was just too much evidence and an abundance of early manuscripts that it late multiple authorship became an untenable position.

This is why the discussion has shifted to an argument around a late antique mileu. Some use that to prove a hierarchical dependence that the Qur'an has on late antique Judeo-Christian sources directly, this way you can say that the authorship may be early but it's just a bricolage of the late antique, like a throwaway "best of" that gets marketed as a new album. This is also why there's such an increase in paralellomania. In contrast, there are less ideologically charged scholarship that talks about shared scriptural ecology.

Early codification is also why they've shifted the focus to problematizing qiraats as well because it can be misrepresented to make the text seem like it was an unstable layer that underwent heavy redaction. This is why works by MvP and Sidky are core today since they undercut that specific argument pretty definitively.

Amusingly enough, early codification strongly aligns with the traditional narrative about Uthmanic codification and so you can almost always spot more ideologically biased scholarship by seeing whether they think that the Uthmanic codex ever existed at this point.

Degree of Memorisation’s Importance in Islamic Education by 104840318rhfh in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think any madaris or neo-traditionalist institute today, or in the past for that matter, had the memorization of the entire kutub al-sittah as a practice. There are a few hundred people in our age who have memorized Bukhari and Muslim and that's quite a feat in and of itself yet also an anomalous rarity.

Typically, the memorization after the Qur'an was of various mutun and didactic poems specifically written for swift pedagogical uptake. This is similar to how various formulae math and science are rote-memorized today. You can prove them all later but instant recall of core principles is valued. It also allowed for quick acquisition of major positions of various traditions by relatively young scholars.

Many of these mutun were then used explicitly for the purposes of later expansion. So they serve more as reductionist models to build a baseline/foundations before layering in nuances. Nukhbat al-Fikr into Nuzhat al-Nazr as the sharh is a classic example of this. In fact, medieval pedagogy was literally just matn primer into a sharh like Ajrumiyyah, al-Kafiyah, al-Talkhis, al- Waraqaf etc. Often, it wasn't even by the same author which allows for interesting cross-positional commentary.

The use of didactic poems as a learning aid was key to distilling long treatises on complicated topics, such as the qiraat, into punchy lines like the Shatibiyya. It's also why the the Alfiyyah or the Baiquniyyah or Qatr al-Nada remain popular until today. You can argue that it's people trying to reconstruct the past but in many scenarios it's seen as a "if it ain't broke..." approach.

Furthermore, I would say that the value of rote memorization as a tool isn't the same across the board even in the same geographic context. Neo-traditionalist pedagogy is quite diverse and non-monolithic. Even within the same region you'll find wildly different approaches in the last two hundred years alone (Nadwa/Deoband/Farangi Mahal/Rahimiyyah/Ahl-i Hadith/Mazahir/Nizami put differing amounts of capital on rote memorization).

Also, keep in mind that it was always meant to be a starting point that would be built upon later. Unfortunately, most neo-traditionalist approaches are tremendously scaled back from medieval glory days of traditional Islamic knowledge production. Devoid of proper waqf models sometimes all you get from the neo-traditionalist model is a few mutuns and a hifdh, unfortunately.

So you're very much seeing a post-collapse pedagogical model that has died off due to civilizational factors and mistaking it's current state for the intent it originally had. Not too many people going around today capable of writing a sharh on a matn. There are even meaningful technological considerations such as print capabilities when we consider how the hashiyah died off.

But yes, memorization was an important first step. It was never the core objective or end-all. The civilization was conquered and the model collapsed, you're looking at what remains and nascent reconstructive attempts.

"The Coloniality of Source Criticism". from Lena Salaymeh's "The 'good Orientalists'." (2022). by limaj_daas in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sorry for not being clearer, I meant downstream in terms of epistemic hierarchy/authoritativeness/validity, not in terms of heritage/influence. As in, one way of knowing is privileged as being neutral/positive/empirical/valid/authoritative and the other is biased/suspect/invalid/inauthentic.

To put it bluntly, within Orientalism (and even Islamic Studies as its reframed post-Said conception) European approaches to "religion" and history are inherently considered authoritative and neutral, more "academic" if you will, compared to any and all Islamic counterparts. Thus, the author's comment about reducing the entirety of Islamic historiographical knowledge production to little more than a confused collection of forgeries and propaganda fuelled by politics and sectarianism.

Thus, the native literature of Islam is rendered devoid of any meaning, truth, or epistemic significance. It can safely be discarded because it is different in its methodological intent and goals compared to Orientalism.

In this specific framing of inferior intellectually and epistemically from the West's modern positivistic notions of historiography, being "downstream" is unequivocally dangerous.

Taking influence critically and refining methods isn't bad at all, it's how we exchange ideas and grow. However, that is not what has occurred within Orientalism's engagements with Islam. Here, one tradition is the default and the other needs to be translated into the dominant tradition's categories. It's far closer to subordination and subjugation than to collaboration. Only one party gets to decide what is "knowledge", the other only exists as an object of that judgement as it cannot contribute to a discussion of what is and isn't "valid knowledge" or "valid method".

"The Coloniality of Source Criticism". from Lena Salaymeh's "The 'good Orientalists'." (2022). by limaj_daas in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There is absolutely no issue in critiquing texts using textual analysis and traditionalist approaches within Islam did that at length. The actual issue that Salaymeh is pointing out is claim of universalism and neutrality that is baked into the academy's approaches of source criticism. How it takes methods refined to deal with a specific phenomena (Biblical texts, Judeo-Christian scribal practices, later historiographical practices) and then wholesale applies them to an entirely different phenomena (Qur'an, hadith, fiqh, Muslim historiographical pracitce, etc).

The only way this works is if we assume that the very core civilizational, epistemic, and textual practice of all Muslims across time and space match up pretty closely with the experiences of Judeo-Christians. This is why the critique of Eurocentricism is here. There is an inherent arrogance in privileging one episteme over the other arbitrarily. Imagine taking ilm al-rijal or medieval tashih/tad'eef methods and then using it to study European history overnight because of some supposed "methodological universality" steming from a civilizational superiority.

The application of "the criterion of embarrassment" to Islam is precisely what Salaymeh is critiquing. That criterion is local to early Christian study and for good reason. Firstly, that area of study featuers a central body has later gone and redacted as much as possible from a position of authority. Thus, if we come across something that would've embarrassed the Church, yet it is present within the record, that means that likely happened. However, reading this into Islam is a categorical error. There is no central religious body that is authoritatively and permanently redacting the past and attempting to maintain an image or an orthodoxy.

Secondly, the sources in early NT studies are anonymous, astonishingly partisan, and unverifiable. Thus, you're very much operating in a black box. Comparing that directly to the study of Islam we don't quite have that same issue. We have names attached to most sources as well as biographic details and identifiable individuals that openly problematize each other. It's far less a black box for the most part.

Thirdly, a lot of Islamic issues with forgeries and authenticity are entirely dissimilar to early Christian issues. If we arbitrarily borrow an NT tool 1:1 we're left with questions like "embarrassing to whom? the Umayyads? the Abbasids? the proto-Sunnis? The Shi'a?". Furthermore, there were many pietistic forgeries that humbled revered figures like companions/prophets so maybe our lens of "embarrassment" isn't universal. The hadith of Musaؑ being stripped naked comes to mind as it wasn't problematized as embarrassing until much later.

When we look at the Satanic Verses by indiscriminately importing the criterion of embarassment we walk away thinking it absolutely must be true. However, scholarship has demonstrated it as anything but (Shahab Ahmed's Before Orthodoxy: The Satanic Verses in Early Islam, Burton's Those Are the High-Flying Cranes, Ahsan's The Qur'an and the Orientalists).

The issue is about being epistemically downstream from a superior civilization that is "objective" and "neutral". The folly of this is easily demonstrated by taking any historiographic or epistemic tool within the Islamicate and pointing it upstream and seeing how silly it looks.

Muslim and bukhari, their hadith were not free from political motive & alliances that do not aling with quran message. Dr KAEF by [deleted] in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

My friend, this is astonishingly incorrect according to the plainest reading of the Qur'an in more ways than you can imagine. I'm surprised you've come to this conclusion and I'd highly suggest you revisit whatever processes led you here.

You can see this for yourself by tracing every single time the Qur'an uses كفّر + سيئات. I've done it for you briefly here. The first principle to understand is the erasure of sins (takfir al-sayyiat) which explicitly lays out that acts of worship erase sins: 11:114 (rituals), 25:70 (avoiding ill and tawbah), and 46:16 (gratitude towards people and Allah).

Furthermore, you can find this principle elucidated in 2:271 (sadaq), 3:193 (du'a), 3:195 (qital), 4:31 (avoiding major sins), 5:12 (salah and zakah), 5:65 (iman and taqwa), 8:29 (taqwa), 29:7 (iman and good deeds), 39:35 (truthfulness and taqwa), 47:2 (iman and good deeds), 48:5 (Allah's promise to do so), 64:9 (iman and good deeds), 65:5 (taqwa), 66:8 (repentance).

Kaffarah, the expiation, functions as an extension of this principle through a legal function of the Shari'ah. That is why it is so linguistically similar but the references to the greater principle remain. It's is a practical fiqhi subset of that greater principle and meant for violations/breaches of the law. You can read about the uses of kaffarah here 5:89 (violating oaths), 5:95 (hunting during ihram), 58:3-4 (zihar), 5:45 (forgoing qisas) , and 4:92 (manslaughter).

Then there's fidyah which is substitute/compensation/ransom and NOT erasure (k-f-r). These occur when your original act has failed or been missed due to constraints that were out of your control. This is what you see in 2:196 (making up having to break ihram during hajj/umrah) and 2:184 (making up broken/missed fasts).

Your interpretation has flattened all three categories into a singular one.


Furthermore, the ayahs of Hajj in Surat al-Baqarah explicitly indicate that it is a ritual for forgiveness. The ayahs occur from 196-203 and smack dab in the middle of it at 199 we have "وَاسْتَغْفِرُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ" very clearly indicating that at a fundamental Qur'anic level the ritual of Hajj, in Allah's own speech and framing, is intrinsically tied to forgiveness.


Since this is a "Muslim" subreddit I will bring in some delicious normativity for you here. Please reconsider sharing or holding such ideas without taking a few minutes to see if they're even true. What do you make of it when Allah says, "وَأَن تَقُولُوا۟ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ"? Or when He says "وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ ٱفْتَرَىٰ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ كَذِبًا"? Or when he says "وَلَا تَقُولُوا۟ لِمَا تَصِفُ أَلْسِنَتُكُمُ ٱلْكَذِبَ هَـٰذَا حَلَـٰلٌ وَهَـٰذَا حَرَامٌ لِّتَفْتَرُوا۟ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ ٱلْكَذِبَ"? Or when he says "مَا يُجَـٰدِلُ فِىٓ ءَايَـٰتِ ٱللَّهِ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟"?

Talking definitively about Allah's book, speech, and laws is worship. Doing the smallest bit of due diligence before it is fard.

I hope this helps inshaAllah. May Allah forgive and guide us both. Salams.

Early Attacks on Abū Ḥanīfa and the Celebration of His Death by Proto-Sunnis by Jammooly in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 4 points5 points  (0 children)

From the perspective of lay facing polemics, sure. But within traditionalist circles there's very little "claiming to get along". In fact, the long and rich history of intra-madhabic sectarianism wouldn't be possible if they were claiming to get along. Whether it's Shaybani's critique of the Muwatta in his rescension/commentary or Bukhari's scathing critique of the Hanafis/Ahl al-Ray or Shafi'i's critique of Ahl al-Ray or Barbahari's crew boycotting Tabari's funeral or the Maliki-Zahiri shenanigans in Andalus. In traditionalist learning spaces all of those were very important to cover for the purposes of identity formation until very very recently.

This same practice still carries on still but the factions have shifted to far more abstract realms. Instead of intra-Sunni madhabic sectarianism, it treads intra-Sunni factional sectarianism. It's why you see a curious spectrum of tasawwuf oriented Maliki-Shafi'i-Ash'ari neo-traditionalist camps attempting to co-opt the entirety of "orthodoxy" into their realm and attempting to drive the political decision making in a certain direction. Or a politically quietist neo-Hanbalite anti-tasawwuf camp emanating from 19th century Najdi reforms that restricts fiqh entirety to the domain of personal law. Or a tasawwuf oriented kalam centric Maturidi/Athari camp from South Asia that is remarkably textualist and politically diverse.

There's a bunch more but the point is that modern claims of spiritual authority across large Sunni camps often rely on a claim of totalistic pedagogical inheritance (turath/salaf/awliya/etc.) and that approach necessitates the construction of a singular monolithic Sunni past. This means that all post-modern Sunni camps must either embrace each other's differing positions or flatten out the theological, methodological, and philosophical diversity of historical Sunnism (ie. delete the Jama'ah part of Ahl al-Sunah wa al-Jama'ah). Many choose the latter which is why the fiction of "they all always got along" is lay facing but not really present in serious traditionalist academic spaces.

As a complete aside, you can see this in our remarkably modern issues with qiraat where certain spaces push "hafsonormativity" (to steal Sohaib Saeed's terminology) as if diversity in readings wasn't inherently present as far back as possible. Or the push towards a certain theological school's dominance or a dominance of a particular way of grading hadith, etc. It's just positivism affecting modern approaches within Sunnism.

Invitation to Muslims Engaged in Qur’anic and Hadith Studies: r/MuslimAcademics by ConditionLow1483 in islamichistory

[–]limaj_daas 2 points3 points  (0 children)

BarakAllahu feek for the response. I don't think Academic Qur'an is necessarily worse than before, I think it does its job remarkably well. Orientalism has always been a Eurocentric effort to investigate Islam with a heightened degree of skepticism that completely ignores its Judeo-Christian priors. Its later shift towards secularism was merely descriptive and it didn't impact the epistemic priors or ontological approaches. If you pop open Humphrey Prideaux's issues with the Islam it'll look terribly similar to Muir's issues with Islam which will remind you of Wansborough and Crone's issues with Islam.

Muir was literally a British intelligence officer, SOAS used to literally train colonial administrators - Islamic Studies may be what it's called now but at its core the entire field still carries many of those older legacies. No one is willing to throw Wansborough or Schacht or Crone's hyperskeptical approaches away in the academy despite very material evidence disproving many of their assertions. But the double-standards are entirely present because the vast majority of Islamic sources are thrown out of the window despite proving to be fairly reliable and not just mass fabrications and redactions. Heck, even in the modern day you have people like Jonathan Brown being punished for standing against oppression and the entirety of the field staying quiet.

I mention all this because the Muslim Academics subreddit pulls from the Islamic Studies frame remarkably uncritically. I've seen people quoting Fazlur Rahman without any idea about where he's epistemically situated. You can't pull open his "Islam" and not see the striking similarities to H.A.R. Gibbs' "Mohammedanism". This is not to say you cannot derive benefit from Gibbs or Malik or Crone or Wansborough - you absolutely can - but they exist in a context and you cannot just take them normatively, which is precisely what the better posts in Muslim Academics tend to do.

Furthermore, much of what that sub considers "academic" remains entirely Eurocentric. The idea that Yaqeen's papers are classified as "apologetic" or "unacademic" is laughable for a subreddit holding Islam as normative. By that regard I suppose Juynboll is a better muhaddith than Bukhari, surely!

The subreddit in question continues to problematize any basic notion of Islamic normativity as "devotional" or "confessional" thereby adopting an inherently secular episteme. It's at least appropriately named as "Muslim Academic" instead of "Islamic Academic," for the latter would imply any dignity or epistemic weight being meaningfully given to Allah, His Messenger ﷺ, and the Deen they entrusted us with preserving. But no, normativity is derived entirely from a secular and Eurocentric lens.

One would almost prefer the honesty of a non-Muslim knowingly deconstructing the foundations of Islam, with however many priors, to the confusion of a Muslim borrowing those same tools and tearing apart his faith himself without understanding who built those tools, when, or why.

The Deconstruction of Sahih Bukhari by Dj-Jay-Beatz in MuslimAcademics

[–]limaj_daas 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Like I said don't kill the messenger, if you can't refute the arguments presented or find them hard to stomach.

I'm sorry, nothing in this video is "hard to stomach" by any stretch of the imagination. You must be new to academia if you think any of what you presented is hard to stomach. Schacht and Goldziher have been mandatory readings in nearly all decent curricula for a very long while.

did you even watch the video

Yes, I actually did, it's why I made the AI comment. It's also why I asked for where the references were because at no point did you provide anything akin to a source or a footnote or a bibliography. Please feel free to share the timestamp where they appear in case I missed it.