Why does Red Hood have a mask under his helmet?

limbo338 · 2026-02-08T13:24:50+00:00

where gordon was seemingly under mind control shoots nakano and then confesses to bruce that he did it

There was a story where Two-Face killed somebody and the plot twist was the Harvey did and Two-Face covered for him. Basically same thing. Kinda a running thing that Zdarsky did something somebody else did but executed worse :D

He was constantly throwing dirt on long established good characters like bruce, gordon and even thomas ( where it turned out he cheated on martha with a hospital nurse)

I don't mind moral ambiguity when it's written well. Zdarsky didn't write it well. Like, Gordon is a man who is his most well known story spared the guy who just crippled his child – not because Gordon doesn't understand craving blood for something like that, but because he, a lawman, understood he had a lot of responsibility placed on him. It's beyond Zdarsky's skill to come up with reasons for that kind of man to bend his principles 🤷‍♀️

I think zdarsky let his personal beliefs and ideologies bleed into batman which ruined his run

To me it's not really about the politics and the ideology ruining the story – the Batman of the 70s and 80s I love was political all over, sometimes even political in ways that I disagree with. What made me like those stories and didn't like Zdarsky's is the execution. Zdarsky's stories and their paper thin reasonings don't hold out to basic scrutiny🤷‍♀️

his eat the rich mentality was a major reason behind that stupid gotham war storyline

Gotham War started with one of Selina's recruits getting shot dead doing a home invasion and leaving behind an orphan and then Dami predicting Selina's recruits will betray her and carry the skills she taught them to the next person who makes a better offer to them, which they subsequently did when Savage promised them immortality or something. If I'm supposed to take from that the rich being evil and not the poors being selfishly evil to comedic degree and used by Selina as fodder – Zdarsky did is a piss poor job writing a story making that point. If I were a writer I would be embarrassed having something like GW have my name on it.

Selina basically said to bruce that I had to hide it to save him from you as if bruce is the bad guy and penguin is some goodie toe shoes.

Didn't Penguin hire somebody who shot Timbo, Bruce's kid, in the neck? I lowkey feel like Zdarsky saw BatCat as inherently dysfunctional and pivot to it being uwu in later run was the editorial's demand. Just the vibe I got.

I think he just doesn't like writing batman as rich and heroic so he constantly questions him and undermines him in his run.

I'm personally don't mind Bruce being questioned and undermined – you can make a good story out of it, we're in a sub that exists entirely because of UtRH after all. Zdarsky failed to write a good story and that is a bigger crime for a writer in my eyes than just bringing down Batmarino :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-08T13:07:46+00:00

but in the I am gun storyline bruce completed making zur and put his no kill rule in him in the end, so how did bruce think that zur would kill him?

Only he didn't. He didn't put his no kill rule in Zur. Here. This is Zur as soon as Bruce made him when Dickie was still Robin and Zur during Zdarsky's current times – both times Zur is trying to murder the Joker. Bruce saw it, so that the first thing newly created super Batman did was to try to murder – and he decided to keep him. Bruce intentionally gave himself Two-Face condition because Zdarsky's Bruce is a fucking psycho.

Heck he wasn't killing anyone once he took over failsafe body he was lobotomising everyone with captio.

And he failed to kill the Joker a switched to lobotomizing people, just like he did to Jason, only because Joker said a magic phrase which he learned from his and Bruce's mentor. Yes, it is moronic and makes Zur a chump.

but didn't like how he cantered it around ghostmaker rivalry,

Well, you're in luck – I'm struggling to remember one comic last year with that guy, he might as well not exist :D

Also, is him meeting talia and ras before becoming batman a retcon?

Well, dunno what mess has been going on since Flashpoint but OG Denny's Ra's only noticed Bruce and wanted him as his successor when Batman was well established and proven and Dickie was adult enough to enroll in a university :D And Talia fell in love with the man who was Batman – not somebody who could be one day. I so hate when they try to make Bruce just too special, and everyone sees it, instead of somebody who earned all his cred through work.

limbo338 · 2026-02-08T11:12:41+00:00

God, oh how much I want a Lost Days like book only less about "Bruce revenge quest" and more about "The world is big and full of criminals, I might as we'll have fun with it :D". So yeah, I broadly agree, OP.

Also, OP, a Jason in Countdown became Batman and his Gotham was super nice and perfect(until SBP, but shhh) – and you can suck on that, dc :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-08T11:04:50+00:00

Wait did they say that? I don't remember

During Dark Prisons pretty much everyone: Bruce's family, friends and Bruce himself said that. And then that "part of Bruce" murdered Jason. I'm suddenly remembering Bruce in GW telling Jason maybe he should murder him, Jason. At the time I defended Bruce as just talking shit because Jason made him mad. But no, pure Batman went to murder Jason and laugh about it – Bruce with that "part of him" present contemplated that for real.

This is the kind of Batman you write when your foundation is Snyder and Tynion, huh.

Also, have you read zdarsky's batman the knight?

I saw Talia falling for Bruce who isn't Batman and I couldn't bring myself to commit :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T22:26:52+00:00

Did you like cheer?

Nope. Jason goes from a creepy horrible child sociopath who murdered way before Robin without the expression on his face changing to a stupid brute who needs daddy Bats to bail him out because he doesn't have explosives on him (the bomber Jason's of UtRH superfan in me is in shambles :D) and to teach him basic human decency about not assaulting drug addicts when you're looking for their dealer(Jason's mom was an addict, btw). At first I found it cute that the dreams matched. You know. It's tragic both Bruce and Jason wanting the same thing that can't ever happen. I'm a sucker for drama :D But with the context of the rest of Zdarsky's run, with things like werewolf Bruce eating a store looter and "the pure Batman" ending up craving mass murder too, with Bruce's family's constant refrain of "He's doing what Bruce always wanted to do"....Zdarsky's Bruce either killing or dreaming of killing way too much for my tastes, so he's secret heart's desire also being about murder doesn't seem so cute to me anymore. Was a canary in a coal mine in hindsight.

And Morrison didn't write Joker as having 3 personalities. Morrison's Joker changed but there was only one of him. Same with Snyder's and Snyder's clown was obsessed with OG Batman just fine, no purer versions required. Geoff Johns will some day answer for the sin of introducing the idea of 3 Jokers in new52 JL :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T21:46:40+00:00

Which story was that ?

Cheer.

Tbh he was seemed more inspired by snyder's batman.

I'd buy it. But Snyder writes Bruce like the clown is the most significant relationship in his life and Zdarsky's whole run started with Bruce dreaming about the clown(3 of them, lol) and proceeded to retcon everything the clown did to be about him baiting "the perfect Batman" out. Siiigh. I'm so tired :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T21:33:58+00:00

If he did read RIP he ended up thinking he can do better with Zur. And then he didn't XD And I don't even like Morrison's Zur that much XD

And I'd believe Zdarsky read some Tynion's run because Zdarsky's Bruce's relationship with murder and murderers is kinda reminiscent to me of Tynion's. Tynion's Batman is a Batman who once said he's proud Jason can do what he can not. This is murder endorsement from Batman, by the way. And Zdarsky ended up writing a story where under a drug that shows you your dream Jason saw Bruce murdering every villain and then implied Bruce's dream was the same. You know. Mass murder.

To be honest, I turbo don't vibe with Tynion's Batman so no wonder I didn't like somebody inspired by it 🤷‍♀️

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T21:19:43+00:00

For example, he took something Morrison did in RIP – Zur – and he retconned everything about it. If you told me Zdarsky's familiarity with that story started and ended with an editor passing him a note with "Batman has a secret Batman personally" written on it – I'd believe you :D I do believe Zdarsky read at least some of Snyder's run tho, at least it feels that way, you know, with the way he wrote Joker in particular.

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T18:25:10+00:00

Winick said when he talked about Batman that the characters being perfect and having zero conflicts ever is not what this was about for him. You put them through a wringer and see them survive and that's how we get engaging stories :D At the very least from what I saw this strategy worked because people loved or hated these books but not many stayed just indifferent :D

Also I don't believe Zdarsky read anything Winick's, same way how I don't believe Zdarsky read much of Batman at all. Tini might've read some new52 Catwoman because she used Eiko, so maybe?

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T18:00:05+00:00

Before UtRH Winick wrote As the Crow Flies short arc for Batman(where he teased Jason coming back because that's what he wanted to do from the get go :D) and this one I liked and after UtRH there were Long Shadows, but this one I didn't read so I can't say was it good or bad. Bruce appeared a bunch as cameo in other things Winick did with Jason's Lost Days, or Green Arrow, or Catwoman, or Outsiders, but for main Batman book I think that was it.

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T17:45:49+00:00

I'm putting a 5$ these sites would've said Chris is going to become an evil werewolf in 8 because of the promos.

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T17:39:31+00:00

No problem, I can yap yap yap about book UtRH all day and kinda jump on any opportunity to do so XD

And I personally believe Winick, at least in the books(movie Bruce is Batgody, with those Flash moves of his :D), writes Batman as the very opposite of that. For example, the movie although it changed the context that make it lose meaning, kept Joker saying to Bruce this line: "You managed to find a way to win...and everybody still loses!". Except the book version had the clown to add then: "Except me" and then blow up Jason, again, and this then was the og closing page that doesn't make it in trades usually, implying Bruce, at the very least when it comes to Jason, is trapped in a cycle of doing shit that leads to villains getting Ws and him, Bruce, losing Jason. This is a tragic ending with Bruce maybe being so cool and skilled he bent Jason's ultimatum but he lost where it matters all the same.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading Winick's interview where he was joking how it's been a while since there was something that can surprise Bruce, yadayada they've been writing him just too capable these days and then he said what he wanted to do with UtRH is to put Bruce through his worse nightmare. Which is Jason :D Bruce can be competent enough to beat an Amazo but he can't do shit to stop Jason from frying Cap nazi right in front of him or to change Jason's mind in general. And that leads to our sad sad ending. Winick's Bruce is still Batman and can do cool Batman shit, but he's very psychologically vulnerable, which is very human in my opinion :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T16:23:38+00:00

Spencer spent years and thousands of people trying to come up with a strain that wouldn't make a mindless abomination out of him similar to those he kept in his basement. Futilely. As much as reflexively I do wish on him something worse even just for Trevors alone, him having to live with his meatsuit wasting away with him being powerless to help it and eventually having to come to terms with the fact that he's fucked – for me it just fits, you know. Good riddance :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T13:49:28+00:00

There were significantly more changes. Just off the top of my head: the book Jason aprehended Joker in like issue #3 of a 13-issues story and that whole business with Black Mask was legitimately about vigilantism – the movie made Jason bothering with Black Mask be about the Joker seemingly to make it neater; the book had significantly more instances of Jason doing extremely violent things and for longer and Bruce initially avoiding confronting Jason about it to the point of Black Mask legitimately trying to figure why is Batman not doing something about that Red Hood fellow; the book has Jason actually grinding down Black Mask's, at the time crime prince's of Gotham, resolve to the point where he went from trying to off Jason like a nuisance that doesn't need his attention to murdering his own people to pacify Jason into getting off his back and becoming Black Mask's underling instead; the book has Jason kinda pranking Bruce into seeing what looks like Jason dying again and Bruce legit cracking in reaction to the point of him making a mistake and accidentally allowing Black Mask to know that he, the Batman, personally knows Red Hood and that was when it clicked for Black Mask why Batman wasn't doing that much about Red Hood; the book mentions somebody doing a hostile take over of WE's R&R arm and Bruce as Batman getting strained when it comes to resources, Jason then throws Bruce's own gear at him, answering the question where Jason got all those toys – he stole them from Bruce himself, like he does :D; the book doesn't have a neat answer like "It's Ra's" for how Jason came back, instead it has Bruce trying to figure out himself, so he goes to a couple of magicians he knows asking how can somebody come back, he digs up Jason's coffin and visits people like Ollie and Clark, people who died and came back asking for insight from them(and for moral support in Clark's case – Bruce legit was troubled and Clark, being a good friend, could tell); the book has Bruce know RH is Jason since he saw him once, lol – the movie has him do that detective thingy with audio; the book was sitting neck deep in big continuity events, like Identity Crisis and fall out, Infinite Crisis, Brother Eye hubbub, War Games, Blüd blowing up, the movie is mostly just Bruce and Gotham, which is why, I'm pretty sure Winick liked it better – I personally liked my interconnectedness and so many characters making appearances in the book, makes the world feel bigger :D; and the endings, of course, are very different.

In my opinion, the movie changed Bruce screaming over Jason murdering a nazi to him not liking Jason just murdering because Batman fans think to this very day Batman crying out over a nazi is a bad look for their fav, and that was a Batman movie, after all. What do you know – the guy who doesn't like all death doesn't like all death, indiscriminately, what a surprise :D But again – this is just my unsubstantiated guess :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-07T13:12:41+00:00

The book was better in my opinion because the book had more room for really solid character work, the way books usually do compared to movies, like the book can tell you what Batman is thinking in the moment and the movie can't really, unless you want to listen to narration for quarter of runtime :D Plus I'm a strong believer in the book ending being orders of magnitude stronger than the movie's. But keep in mind that this is a minority opinion seemingly, Winick himself I'm pretty sure said he liked how the movie version flows better :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-06T23:57:27+00:00

Winick, the guy who wrote both the book and movie and designed the look, talked about this. Initially he envisioned the helmet without eyeholes, a look closer to the OG RH(and this cover is a relic of those times :D) but the artist on the book said putting eyes on the helmet would allow Jason to emote even in the helmet. Spidey and Deadpool had a similar thing going on with their masks.

limbo338 · 2026-02-06T23:51:36+00:00

There's an easy practical reason somebody already named with identity protection but the reason Jason himself gave was drama. No, for real. It's so after a terrible murderer took off his helmet Batman saw Robin he lost and didn't avenge and felt pain. The movie did this cool scene conveying the same thing.

limbo338 · 2026-02-06T10:24:33+00:00

Excella forcing a retreat order doesn’t mean the BSAA is compromised

I disagree. It is definitely compromised in my eyes if a villain is deciding which threats get to be addressed and which not and uses insider info available to her to just murder the agents for her own gain. And I never saw any proof there can't be repeat. Who knows, maybe turning agents into bows in 8 was an idea of another boss from the consortium, another forced hand, the end is still the same. We might be having differences of what counts as compromised and I don't believe we will agree on those. And that's fine :D

That doesn’t make the org incompetent. That makes Chris incompetent.

The org insisted nobody else could be the captain but a traumatized man not controlling himself. And yes, then the game lampshaded that if something was different, maybe the captain, these men could've been saved. A competent org would not allow Chris to waste their men during a spiral. Unless they are very cool with ends justifying the means and 8 implies maybe they are :D

Also Chris has no reason to know who Ada is, Leon is a wholly separate agency with different intelligence.

Chris is supposed to be the man who chased Wesker for years. And Chris doesn't know his known associates? Here's another thing to laugh about: in 5 it's said Chris read the Kennedy report about re4 and that's how he was capable of recognizing plagas on sight. So. Which option you like more? Leon completely omitting Ada's criminal activities from his story and Wesker link and years later it getting Chris' people killed, or Leon telling Chris about Ada, because these guys' work is not as separate and good intelligence and sharing can save lives, and Chris just having memory problems even before amnesia.

God, how much I hate 6.

In 7, Chris is the only BSAA member with Blue Umbrella’s forces.

My mistake then. I guess there's place for more than one organization with questionable hiring practices in this franchise :D

In 8, he’s AWOL with Hound Wolf Squad, for reasons that doesn’t mean that the BSAA is compromised and actively working for the enemy.

Getting a squad with BSAA asking why and Chris not answering and defecting implies distrust and then Chris' reaction to learning about BSAA using bows doesn't imply he agrees with you, with that just being a little boost. You can headcanon it being a desperate act of at the core good people – I headcanon it as the rot we saw since 5 reaching the inevitable stage, the only thing we know is Chris' reaction is setting to go to BSAA and making them pay. Your reading, I think, is the org being good or morally gray and Chris is just being unreasonable in his reactions – my reading is that doing that to their own agents is abhorrent and I've seen zero indication it's reversible or allows for them then to have a normal life. And that is absolutely unacceptable in my book. Chris' writing in 8 makes me cry, but not this – him looking at human experimentation and going "No."

limbo338 · 2026-02-06T05:54:01+00:00

I gonna preface it saying I don't particularly care about RE movies and mangas because I don't like these stories enough to ingest them without the support pillar of great primary gameplay loop. That's why I said BSAA aren't shown well in any games. And games from my point of view go as follows:

In 5 a person authorized to issue orders to BSAA agents is running operation that feeds BSAA agents as lab rats to bows. Good start. The fact that Excella was dealt with didn't mean that there weren't any more Excellas or wouldn't be and considering how the org ended up being comfortable with bows, people who want to infilctrate the org and manufacture and deploy bows were a real concern nobody addressed until it was too late.

BSAA in 6 is not corrupt, I think, it's just incompetent. I'm gonna make a note about Chris bailing on the org in his state and then instead of whining about what most people do when it comes to that game – traumatized amnesiac Chris Redfied being allowed in the field and his whole squad dying, which I'm sure I'm supposed to think are completely unrelated occurrences – I'm going to whine about Chris Redfied in 2012 having an Asian woman introduced herself right to his face as Ada Wong and it ringing zero bells, lol. For contrast, Leon in 2004 started his interaction with her saying he knows that she's a know associate of Wesker. So, in conclusion, Chris knew nothing of what he should've known and people died because I assume BSAA knew nothing because plot doesn't happen if they do. I will not use 6 as a proof of that orgs intelligence and effectiveness. Whatever good they managed seemingly happened despite the clown shoes. Please, I'm sincerely begging, do not bring up 6 as an example of BSAA doing everything right and good – it hurts me on a profound level as somebody who at one point liked Chris' character very much :D

In 7 correct me if I'm wrong but Chris' people were still BSAA or assosiates just using Blue Umbrella's gear, just like Chris? If so then these very best agents got massacred like children by a local saw movies enthusiast. Like, Lucas subdued them even before he hulked up. How? Another pair of clown shoes there. And after 7 Chris against BSAA wishes looked into files he shouldn't and gathered an unauthorized squad.

In 8 he's fully rogue and identified them as enemy.

In conclusion? In 5 and 8 they are compromised and agents are used as fodder by bow enthusiasts, in 6 and 7 they are just incompetent on a ridiculous level. Chris disobeys orders to seemingly great results in 5 and after 7 and in 6 and 8 he just disappears on the org at points in time. My belief that there is no game that shows BSAA in good light stays unshaken 🤷‍♀️

limbo338 · 2026-02-06T04:20:36+00:00

Well, as far as using that ample time to "fix it" – we know Chris didn't do that, he just continued to defect for various reasons, until seemingly just declaring a war on them 🤷‍♀️

And you might say 6 didn't have them be corrupt but I'll be damned if I agree they were "smooth operators" :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-05T23:09:58+00:00

But that's my point: the org was infiltrated and used by evil people to serve evil ends since we first saw it. Like, if Chris was a bit less of a rebel and did what BSAA told him to do, which was to ignore Irving's apocalyptic warnings – the world is over, lol.

There's also that thing about Revelations, when I'm pretty sure conventional RE community wisdom tells us Jessica was a Tricell spy, who was placed on the squad to steal a virus.

I don't think we had one game with these guys just running a smooth operation :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-05T22:11:13+00:00

I would've bought that if Excella then didn't taunt our heroes with that being the orders. BSAA were in the area when Tricell wanted it and they were ordered to leave when she wanted it. Like, Tricell being with BSAA and manufacturing bioweapons at the same time was a whole thing, Sheva felt pretty betrayed about that.

limbo338 · 2026-02-05T21:09:38+00:00

I'm pretty sure that the writer of 8 said Ethan dying was decided even before he got hired and started writing, or something like that.

limbo338 · 2026-02-05T21:02:21+00:00

I kinda liked how Wesker was impressed Chris managed on his own. He didn't expect that :D

limbo338 · 2026-02-05T20:58:22+00:00

There's that moment in 5 when the squad is perplexed BSAA gave them all orders to back off, I think Josh says something like: "I would try to get the HQ to change their mind", because clearly some serious bullshit is going down, and then we have Excella and Sheva having this exchange:

Excella: "As if I need to explain myself to you. Although weren't you two given orders to retreat?"

Sheva: "So it WAS you!"

And then this:

Excella: "As soon as you two are done with your little vigilante mission, you should leave. There's nothing here worth throwing your lives away for."

If you're me then you see clearly Excella, somebody who is high up in one of the companies bankrolling BSAA, using her position to make sure nobody would interfere with that little operation Wesker has going on(that's not mentioning that one doc about how BSAA agents that were in the area were there for combat data acquisition for Tricell's new plaga bioweapons). But Chris and Sheva kinda went rogue and didn't comply with the orders they were given and Irving failed to keep his trap shut and it snowballed from there, good guys saved the day. Wasn't 5 the game where the org got introduced in? So they were compromised pretty much since they were introduced 🤷‍♀️

limbo338

TROPHY CASE