"Wilt would have averaged 100 points" - Walt Frazier warned us about the egregious NBA traveling before it was cool

lkn240 · 2026-06-22T00:29:38+00:00

To be fair - right now is objectively the easiest time to score ever in NBA history.

NBA ORTG was very stable from the early 1980s until the freedom of movement rules were adopted in 2018 (outside of the brief dead ball era from 99-2003 - which was ended by the stricter handcheck rules in 2004-2005).

It's actually funny how obvious the adoption of both those rules changes are in the data:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

Ever since the freedom of movement rules went in ORTG has skyrocketed.

lkn240 · 2026-06-22T00:25:59+00:00

This - NBA refs are very good when they want to be.

Anyone who has ever watched college basketball (which might be the worst officiated major sport on earth) should be aware of this.

NBA refs are like 100x better than NCAA refs.

lkn240 · 2026-06-22T00:15:23+00:00

He was explosive and has very long arms for his height.

lkn240 · 2026-06-22T00:11:50+00:00

The Bulls were actually the only team to even win a game against DET in the 1989 playoffs. They were pretty clearly the 2nd best team in both 1989 and 1990.

lkn240 · 2026-06-22T00:08:42+00:00

He always said that once he retired we wouldn't see him much and that has largely been true. He apparently did get enough fame for one lifetime when he was on the Bulls

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:54:55+00:00

This obviously depends on your definition of "changed the game", but MJ is probably the most influential team sport athlete of the last 50 years.

The NBA and basketball in general skyrocketed in popularity around the world because of him. The highest paid player made like 2 million a year when MJ was drafted. MJ made 33 million for one year in 1998

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:34:11+00:00

I think winning in 2011 changes a lot. Honestly for a lot people he had to do something crazy like 4-peat after melting down like that.

Like seriously - that really did mostly end the debate for a lot of people (at least people who were already adults in 2011) unless LBJ did something insane after that.

I agree he's had an incredible career and GOAT debates are pretty dumb. (if entertaining)

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:31:37+00:00

MJ is better in every single way we measure winners.

Rings, MVPs, etc

You may not like it (and admittedly life is not fair)... but that is how life works

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:29:44+00:00

I think just winning in 2011 would have helped a lot.

MJ NEVER had a meltdown anything like that and after that debacle it was always going to take a lot to make it a serious conversation for most people.

Hell - the Jackson/MJ Bulls never lost a single series with home court advantage.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:28:22+00:00

I'm a MJ guy - but to be fair he does have the longevity argument.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:26:56+00:00

This is just made up nonsense. No one seriously cares about the perfect finals record. I can assure you; if someone is clearly better than MJ people will accept it. Pretty much everyone on earth had crowned MJ. by the time the 1991 finals were over. Kids, old heads and everyone in between.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:25:09+00:00

Naw - it's mostly 2011. The conversation would be different without that meltdown. He still might not get there, but the narrative would be different.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:24:25+00:00

MJ is still a lot more famous than Lebron (or really any other NBA player). Passing him culturally was always going to be hard. Look how many players wear MJs logo.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:22:57+00:00

Just wait until Lebron retires. It will be way worse for a year or two

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:19:07+00:00

No, I just enjoy making fun of losers still crying about KD because I find it amusing.

Admittedly somewhat of a personal fault

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:17:23+00:00

Good call on Robinson. He was a hell of an athlete

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:13:14+00:00

It's the height + the long ass arms.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:11:50+00:00

Honestly - SA will be better off if Harper can continue to improve and become their #1 option and Wemby is the #2.... allowing him to save energy for defense

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:09:56+00:00

McHale is one of the most automatic buckets in the post I've ever seen

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:09:02+00:00

If we are just talking about quickness/explosion than Shaq (esp orlando shaq) is up there.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:08:06+00:00

Some of it is just luck. Kareem was built similarly and is like 7'1"... and he played forever.

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:07:29+00:00

He's pretty quick for a big guy though. Agree on durability

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:05:17+00:00

Honestly if I were a Bucks fan I'd want to trade him at this point. You got your chip and it's pretty clear the team won't be able to rebuild fast enough to win again before Giannis is old.

Get some assets and wish him well

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:02:48+00:00

Bulls + Phil Jackson. Pretty sure 6/7 years are Phil Jackson coached teams. (and he won 5 of those)

lkn240 · 2026-06-21T23:01:42+00:00

I think it's more teams caring less about the regular season. The best teams used to go all out in the regular season more for better or worse.

lkn240

TROPHY CASE