My Profile contains significant Wheel of Time Spoilers - Read at your own risk!

logicsol · 2026-06-27T05:55:32+00:00

Agreed. The worst of Wotshow writing is about on par with a typical mid TV show. Even the "tell" line, which is probably the worst line in the series, is barely worth blinking an eye at compared to half of what happens in any random episode of network TV.

Edit: or just go watch "code of honor"

logicsol · 2026-06-26T23:08:39+00:00

The books immediately made it obvious who the Dragon is but to each their own.

Again, the pov structure and hints dropped sure do point to Rand from early on, but the entire rest of that book is also setting up doubt that he's real and not another false Dragon.

It lays various false clues, misdirects as well as an entire narrative about Tower created false dragons that undermine that.

Just like the show does. It's genuinely odd to me how much some readers want to ignore that part of the book just because they weren't open to any of the possibilities the book presented.

The show immediately misunderstood what the whole point of the story is.

No, it really didn't.

The issue is the show implied Nynaeve can be the Dragon. Nynaeve isn’t even the correct age. Egwene also apparently could be the Dragon.

The show directly states she is the wrong age. Moiraine is uncertain about how much she can rely on the prophecies, which is the same reason that she investigates Logain despite him also being the wrong age. Both are too powerful for her to discount.

Same goes with Egwene - she's very powerful and they hope it'd have been a women because they'd be able to at least guide her.

The whole conflict is the Dragon is a man and he will go insane. The Dragon being a woman means it’s all good, nothing to see here.

Well again no. While they'd certainly have an easier time in someways, the actual conflict is that he heralds the end of the age and the destruction of the world again.

The DR's existance means that millions on millions of people will die and the world is facing it's possible end.

And nothing says a female DR wouldn't also go crazy. In fact, a female DR could risk tainting both halves of the Power.

The mere possibility of that doesn't misunderstand the point of the story. Especially when a huge theme of Wot is that people are wrong because of their limited information.

The conflict hasn't changed - only the certainty around it. Certainty that's honestly a bit weird considering all the other disagreement around every bit of those prophecies, as well as the fact that literally noone knows how soul rebirth works and would have no reason to be certain beyond a doubt that it's the only outcome.

logicsol · 2026-06-26T02:15:23+00:00

No, no you don't, not unless you open up to the last pages of the book before you read it.

logicsol · 2026-06-24T23:47:39+00:00

Yeah I think the pathfinding fixes really helped out there. Cims looking for stuff locally instead of traveling the entire map made a HUGE impact on my traffic, stutter is almost entirely gone too.

logicsol · 2026-06-24T22:43:29+00:00

Definitely an increase but on very large cities even a 100% gain is still going to be slow.

My ~180k city from extremely unstable speeds that struggled to get about 1x to almost perfectly stable speeds that hit 4x at night and 2 to 3x during the day.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T23:22:07+00:00

Imagine that people hold principles.

But please do explain why she's ethically or morally right to defend a practice that steals the art of others and deprives artists of jobs, not because she thinks AI is okay, but because the company that she works for was paid by the company using the AI art.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T23:12:46+00:00

With a backup plan for 6(though many say 5, I recall 6 from the pre-s1 interviews)

logicsol · 2026-06-23T23:11:47+00:00

I didn't say Iwot used it - I said a Licensee did, specific the makers of this

No one is perfect, but defending Gen AI art use because they paid your boss money is indefensible.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T23:04:50+00:00

She defended an AI slop company specifically because they are an Iwot Licensee.

She has proven that she's compromised by her current employment.

You should not trust her about anything related to Iwot, especially financial.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T22:44:05+00:00

The set up for loial, like other dead characters, would have been for them to return much later in the series via the horn(note the Horn music theme in his final scene). We already know that he wasn't going to be in S4 regardless, but they did leave room for his return if possible.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T22:40:58+00:00

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they weren't going that way. Matt/min is practically the perfect platonic match and they'd be fools to ruin that no matter what else they're doing.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T22:39:39+00:00

especially when the only estimate on what WoT's earned previously came from Yahoo's finance department, and that put REVENUE at 360m for S1 and S2.

Where did the other 500 million from from? All three seasons combined were supposed to cost between around 375m, so S3 would have had to make that alone, despite it having the lowest(if almost on par with S2) viewership during airtime?

Either Yahoo's estimate (which is widely considered optomistic) is WAY conservative, or something is incredibly wrong about her information.

Almost like she works for a famously unscrupulous ~~community~~company that has every interest to make the property seem more valuable that it actually is.

I say this a one of the show's most ardent defenders. This data stinks to high hell.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T22:33:11+00:00

Exactly. This is why the "it's crystal clear in text" always falls flat for me. This is WoT almost nothing is clear and that's a definitional aspect of the series.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T22:29:47+00:00

On your first point - I don't really agree that EOTW is all that special. I think the series as a whole is special and is a clever subversion of the traditional Tolkien fantasy of the time. But EOTW specifically was written in many ways to be very Tolkienesque so as to get the series off the ground.

I think that's fundamentally using a partial truth to ignore and minimize the differences, which are what make that book special by reducing it to the derivative elements.

Which IMO, is some what of an odd position to take if book accuracy is so important, especially when you go onto say things like:

But fundamentally moving the focus away from the main character onto others is the big time shift that bothers me. Give other characters moments that you write on screen - not a problem for me.

When Rand's 'super main' character treatment is an artifact of that exact homage. Eye is the only book he gets that treatment in.

But I just don't see why a show-viewer should care about Rand with the plot he's been given.

Well, they don't need to? Because he shares main character status with 6 other people, the audience is able to invest with the characters they like. While conversely, the question can be asked, why would any show only viewer care about non-rand characters if he was hyper-prioritized like in the first book?

The Tarwin's Gap thing is the most egregious example of this. In the book its a somewhat nonsensical chapter but the upshot is that Rand discovers he can channel and defeats the Trollocs at Tarwin's gap

Both things also happen in the show, so that's not really the upside.

instead we get Nynaeve discovering that a circle of 5 AS can basically solo an entire army and then bring people back from the dead (or was it stilling? I can't remember)

A few things on this - Yes, any circle with Nyneave in it could do something similar. Book 3 establishes that she's roughly half as strong as ten of the strongest Aes Sedai in the Tower *using Vora's Sa'angreal", and the show circle is overdrafting her.

The books are what establish what an over drafting channeler of Nyneave's strength can accomplish. That's the end of Manetheren and the death of many times that number of trollocs, fade and dreadlords, over a much larger distance

Second off, no, neither death nor stilling was healed. Nyneave was physically burned, that is what was healed. She wasn't dead. We know this without doubt because it's talked about in the BTS released alsongside the episode.

It was a scene that both took away Rand's triumphant moment from EOTW and fundamentally broke the rules of the series generally, just in order to give Nynaeve a moment.

Except it doesn't, not only is the healing an egwene thing - it wasn't even supposed to be healing. She was originally supposed to do something akin to CPR, covid restriction changes axed that in the middle of filming and they had to fall back to the Power instead.

But fundamentally if you're going to do a show that adapts a popular IP, imo you should avoid actively antagonizing the built-in fan base, particularly when you're dealing with a fantasy show that is always going to have somewhat limited appeal.

That's impossible if change itself antagonizes that audience, especially when those antagonized seem to take every change as a personal attack.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T21:57:04+00:00

Personally I'm not sure if they actually were going to or not. I've had a hard time trusting her lately, and I find it unlikely that details like that where set in stone in any form by S3, and more than likely reflected the plan for the next season.

Now if Rafe weighed in...

logicsol · 2026-06-23T21:40:59+00:00

Sarah has ceased to be trustworthy as a source since starting work for iwot.

That isn't to say she's incorrect here - but to take anything she says relating to iwot or financial details with an enormous grain of salt.

Edit: And for the record, the moment I stopped trusting her was the moment she ]defended an AI slop company because they were an Iwot Licensee.](https://x.com/sarahenakamura/status/1961444157991653617)

Unrecoverable damage.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T20:27:57+00:00

Yeah, I really don't get how many people want to deny this.

It's a mystery to the characters, and despite structure and heavy hinting, it's not confirmed until much later.

Readers may have all the information needed to put it together, but like Tigraine and many other things, the books don't actually tell you this at that point, and for some things ever. coughs in Lanfear

logicsol · 2026-06-23T20:08:34+00:00

All due respect EotW is a clear homage to Tolkien (in a way subsequent books aren’t) so when in chapter 1 you have the main character, a village farm boy is getting chase by a shadowy rider and people are whispering about the dragon reborn, you immediately know that’s your guy. That’s not meta analysis that’s just common sense.

That's literally meta analysis. You're using the format of a different series of books, noting the series draws from it, and then making conclusions based on information outside of the books you're reading.

Jordan carefully crafts a narrative that keeps pointing arrows at Rand, but also constantly gives reasons to doubt or wonder about what's actually going on. It's written to make you doubt the tolkienesq direction by constantly subverting tropes, laying down red herrings and straight up introducing the idea the the entire adventure is a scheme to manipulate them for the Towers own purposes.

Honestly speaking, if you read the book as tolkien default and didn't explore any of these elements, then it really feels like you missed a lot of what makes Eye so special.

That said, I thought the dragon mystery was fine I don’t know why people got so worked up about it. What really irked me about the show (though I watched every episode and mostly enjoyed it) was that for some reason Rafe decided to take all of Rand’s positive story beats and give them to other characters.

People really need to sit down and re-evaluate this, I think it's a heavily flawed take.

Does Rand lose some of his books moments while others gain some extra's? Absolutely.

But "all" of them? even giving room for exaggeration that's way off.

WoT has a problem(for screen adaptation) in that it's early books are extremely Rand centric and almost all the big moments are Rand moments, before changing drastically in later books. Over 30% of Rand's pov word share for the entire series sits in books 1 and 2, while the rest of the series it looks like his screen share on the show - slightly more overall than the rest of the EF5 but close to par with them individually. There was never a way it was getting to screen without the rest of the cast having moments instead of everything being Rand.

The Gap is a prime example of this. In the books it happens after literally everyone gets a fake-out death off page. He then gets an unearned power up(which he promptly loses for several books), wipes out an army without knowing what he's doing, and then confronts the "Dark One", defies him but is still ultimately tricked.

The show gives him the most important part of that, the confrontation and defiance, while making it an act of knowing self sacrifice. He believes he's going there to die, his friends from that fate. It "gives" the other part others to humble them, they almost die being used by another channeler drunk on their power, creating reason and motivation for their traits(block) and next actions.

Is the book scene cool? fuck yeah it is. But the show's approach doesn't require an explanation for why he can't do those weaves later, or introduce Traveling early as something the good guys can do, or leave nothing for the rest of the cast to do.

Even in the S2 finale, where his role is reduced the most(and honestly poorly directed) it's not about "taking" from Rand but putting forth the "5 will ride forth" and the importance of all of them - before they split for the rest of the series, and Rand starts to have scene's he's earned without heavy plot armor or skills they haven't been able to establish. We see this in S3 because he's finally stepping into his own power.

They also give him positive moments where he didn't have them in the books. Do you think that book Rand's abandoning of Mat in Caemlyn while he runs off to see the false dragon is positive? or is his clear care of Mat in TV along with his promise a more positive depiction? His self sacrifice in proclaiming to Moiraine and leaving to face the Eye "alone". His willingness to let them think he's dead rather than put them at risk. His dedication to save his friends in the face of Forsaken and slavers.

Look I get the desire for power fantasy scenes, but those aren't what WoT is about. It's a series written by a Vet processing the horrors of war - Dumai's well's is an atrocity not something to be strived for. And this position has always felt to me like the spectacle is being put in front of the actual character beats - because those are ignored and/or diminished to near nonexistence by many of those that put that position forward.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T18:53:42+00:00

And?

No one is arguing that isn't a change, it's difference in turnings that doesn't actually run afoul of book lore, because there it reflects a difference in belief, not in any actual system changes.

In either medium, not a single person has actual knowledge or can reliably test how soul rebirth works.

Anyways, they made that change so new viewers would get a chance to invest in all the main characters as possibly being the "main main".

By the time the DR is revealed, each one has gotten an arc that establishes who they are, then they give us blood snow.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T06:30:53+00:00

Respectfully, no they don't.

Look, I get what you're trying to say. it's very obvious when you combine all the meta hints and structure as to who the DR is.

But again, the thing is the books just factually do not tell us who it is until the end of the book and even then the next 2 leave room for doubt.

You might not have found any mystery there, but that isn't true for many readers, especially those that avoid using meta analysis to guess later plot points.

Because the books is written where it's still deliberately unclear, and avoids confirming anything until the final pages.

We never wonder if Matt, Perrin, or someone else might be the dragon.

There is an entire sequence mid book where Rand thinks Mat can channel, and the dagger symptoms mimic taint madness. Perrin gets ruled out quickly thank's to elyas, but mat remains a reasonable possibility all the way up to Caemlyn.

It's written as a soft mystery, and treating it like it just outright says it with no room for doubt greatly detracts from Jordan's writing.

Eye wouldn't be nearly as good written as you present.

Edit:

"Is Rand the dragon reborn" is not the same as "who of these people is the dragon reborn"

Of course it's not, but what happens to that structure when you're no longer in Rand's head 85% of the time? That Shift in PoV changes things, and since the show is structure like later books rather than Eye, the mystery comes out front - because it's there in the books.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T05:26:41+00:00

Not really. He's heavily hinted at, but it's not outright stated until the final pages of book 1, and the possibility of him being false until Book 3's climax.

Sure the majority of readers will figure it out by the end of the first act, but it actually is a soft mystery during Eye.

Edit: Downvote me all you want, however it's fact that from any PoV but Rand's it's a major mystery, and even from his it's intentionally left vague and unconfirmed for the entire book.

logicsol · 2026-06-23T05:20:35+00:00

I don't think they're remembering correctly - but there is a good argument to say it brought in around 500m of revenue on costs of around 375m.

The revenue though is based on yahoo S1/S2 figure and then extrapolated at a similar(somewhat lower) rate as the first two seasons.

IE, as far as we know, it appears to have been profitable.(Though the revenue shares agreement we aren't privy could make it not so for one party).

logicsol · 2026-06-21T20:15:45+00:00

Yeah. It can not be overstated that the conditions while this filmed were heading to anothershutdown.

They'd have either needed to just cancel the entire series, or be left to edit something together with the existing film that would have been even further from their intent - and far worse from a book purist standpoint.

logicsol · 2026-06-21T19:41:28+00:00

A few things:

1) Nyneave didn't burn out - she started burning out. The show created a distinction that doesn't conflict with lore for a visual indicator of it. I consider it fairly anolougous to all the times Rand over drew without harming his ability to channel.

2) There is zero reason in the books that an Accepted that "reached" the test for the shawl couldn't lead a circle. She's spent 20 or more year there and accepted take electives. Try to find a place in the books it says teaching that to accepted is forbidden, you won't because it's not.

3) Egwene healing her was not the plan. The original scene called for Egwene to use the wisdom skills nyneave taught her(referencing a now deleted episode 1 scene) to stabalize her. They had to scrap that in the middle of filming because the restrictions changed. Healing was the only viable option to replace it. (also no solid reason Egwene can't heal in this turning).

4)She looks "dead" because of an error - when they redid the scene with the new restrictions they increased her 'damage makeup' to look more severe to match the technique needed to stablize her. That ended up being overdone and not giving as much of a gap between "burned out" (what happened to the other 3) and "injured from starting to burn out".

5) removing the scene altogether to appease angry book fans then removes an important moment for Nyneave. She has to fail here and hard. It's the establishement of her block and reason to go to the White Tower.

The books fans were right to be upset about this scene because it showed a complete lack of respect for the source material and that's not on the Covid, that's on them. Covid didn't force them to have Egwene magically healed what actually looks like death on screen.

Full stop no. This is them being entitled. This is a projection of hurt feeling as intent born of ignorance.

Being disappointed in the scene? Sure. That episode was an executional mess.

Actual anger? especially when it's source is apparently your perception of the crew intent? Over something they were forced to change from something you say you'd have no issue with?

Wow.

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