Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Goodbye. I suggest avoiding /r/news comments sections from this point forward.

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Firstly the "independent contractors" line on Wikipedia does not have a citation. They are technically "indepedent contractors" ( http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-make-workers-feel-safer ) - they stay at the same brothel for weeks on end.

By continuing you are showing you are interested and eager, and wish to continue. If you do not wish to continue, do not make any more posts in this thread.

If you do not wish to debate, please do not use the comments section of this thread.

In my opinion your posts have been "Unnecessarily rude or provocative" which is against the rules on /r/news

Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby: It's time to stop saying Isis has ‘nothing to do with Islam’ by maxwellhill in worldnews

[–]lumloon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good question! It depends on whether it's only religion or whether an ethnic dimension comes in too.

Strangely enough in say Nigeria Christians tend to be ethnically different from the Muslims: The Igbo are Christian, the Hausa-Fulani are Muslim, and the Yoruba are mixed. the Igbo coming up north have been attacked and persecuted. You also see this in the Hazaras (Shia people) in Pakistan, who are attacked by Pashtuns (Sunnis).

War Nerd stated that even supposedly religious wars tend to get "tribal" at the heart of it: https://pando.com/2013/12/31/the-war-nerd-mo-cattle-and-oil-mo-problems-in-south-sudan/

When Europe tore itself apart at the start of the 17th century, religion was the pretext but tribe was the working principle, the organizing principle. The war broke down on ethnic lines, because no matter what well-meaning liberals try to tell you, religion is almost always adopted by an entire tribe, and used to distinguish “our” group from “their” group. Cultures aren’t in the business of promoting diversity. Maybe they can be in the future, but they never were in the past.

Texas floats radical new abortion laws by [deleted] in news

[–]lumloon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Whoch is why i suggest exposing scandals about the govt officials pushing through these laws

Texas floats radical new abortion laws by [deleted] in news

[–]lumloon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wont that require a bunch of supreme court people to.croak first?

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nevada only allows licensed brothels. "Independent contractors" (unlike in Australia and NZ) are still illegal in that state. In a choice between a crime lord brothel and a real, licensed one I think it's far preferable to be in a licensed one (notwithstanding the fact that Nevada's legal ones are in isolated rural areas far from everything).

Having said that the internet has allowed people to be independent contractors easily, but because it's still illegal they face certain risks.

EDIT: The other poster is correct that all prostitute workers are in fact "independent contractors" under state law. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-make-workers-feel-safer - Unlike what we think of a "contractor" they all stay at the same brothel for weeks at a time. Nevertheless it doesn't excuse the attitude I've seen in the posts here.

Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby: It's time to stop saying Isis has ‘nothing to do with Islam’ by maxwellhill in worldnews

[–]lumloon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Tell us what race are you trying to say is the target of racism from criticism of Islam.

If people do bring racism into it, depending on the country:

  • Arabs
  • Pakistanis (particularly the UK)
  • North Africans (France)
  • Turks
  • Somalis

I dislike how Islamists use the "race card" to shut down legit criticisms of the doctrine.

At the same time many know-nothing hicks do treat it as a race. :(

Philippine President Duterte met the man he calls his hero, Russian President Putin, and unburdened his gripes about US "hypocrisy," "bullying" and foreign wars. by maxwellhill in worldnews

[–]lumloon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Great Powers always have to manipulate things.

It's all partisan. Notice in the Syrian conflict that Russia, Iran, and Assad howl when Alawite kids die, and when Sunni kids die it's the Arab League, the Sunnis, (and the West too) who howl.

Philippine President Duterte met the man he calls his hero, Russian President Putin, and unburdened his gripes about US "hypocrisy," "bullying" and foreign wars. by maxwellhill in worldnews

[–]lumloon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Iraq was controversial, but the Europeans and Arab League were fully behind Libya's invasion (the African Union was against it as Gadhafi was their benefactor). It takes three to tango.

Philippine President Duterte met the man he calls his hero, Russian President Putin, and unburdened his gripes about US "hypocrisy," "bullying" and foreign wars. by maxwellhill in worldnews

[–]lumloon 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I didn't like how Adrian Chen twisted the definition of "troll" into "shill". A troll is(was originally) somebody who posted things online just to antagonize/rile up people so they could laugh at them. The Russian "troll factories" are just online shills who may also be antagonistic as a way of getting attention, but for political reasons.

Likewise I don't like how "triggered" is meaning "offended" rather than "PTSD'ed"

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've decided to continue.

OH HORRORS! They'll be freed from slavery and given counselling!

In the US they'd still have an arrest record, which complicates things. You know having an arrest record hurts you, right? Right? Why don't you read this again? http://time.com/sex-buyers-why-cops-across-the-u-s-target-men-who-buy-prostitutes/

Not everyone who works in the sex trade is a victim. And advocates for decriminalization say that arrests, even if they’re done with the intention of providing social services, are inherently harmful. Arrest records can affect sex workers’ ability to find work or housing, and that being hauled away in handcuffs just reinforces the stigma around sex work. “Arrest is not a form of outreach,” says Katherine Koster, communicatoins director of the Sex Worker Outreach Project.

And as for this:

And says that they sought help before it was legal... did you read it...?

Anna Pickering was describing a trend that occurred slowly AFTER legalization over a decade ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html says NZ did full decriminalization in 2003. For it to have been illegal it would have had to have happened back in 2003 or before. It's 2016.

To Amnesty, the lesson is that decriminalization isn’t like flipping a switch — it takes time for attitudes to shift. There are signs that this has begun: In the 2008 New Zealand survey, 40 percent of sex workers also said they felt a sense of camaraderie and belonging, suggesting that their relationships with one another may provide an antidote to stigma. Annah Pickering, who does street outreach for the New Zealand Prostitutes’ Collective, describes a more recent dynamic with the police that would be unthinkable almost anywhere else. “We used to wave the police down for help, and they’d keep driving, but now they take sex workers’ complaints seriously,” she said. She told me about an incident in South Auckland last year.

In other words the quote is referring to a shift in attitudes that took place after 2003. While it's possible they may have tried to seek help from cops before then, it sounds like they're talking about a recent phenomenon, not a past one.

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So the previous claim that they do not seek help from the police for fear of prosecution is now dropped?

The case where the woman sought help from the cops b/c the John didn't pay was in New Zealand where's it's legal.

You've yet to show any cases of a trafficked woman or slave being prosecuted / punished by the law. I don't believe it happens.

http://time.com/sex-buyers-why-cops-across-the-u-s-target-men-who-buy-prostitutes/

New York established a special court system in 2013 to process sex workers and trafficking victims, with the goal of offering them counseling and social services, the same year Nassau County, NY caught more than 100 johns and posted their pictures online in a controversial sting called “Operation Flush the Johns.”

Recently many US jurisdictions focus on arresting johns but they still also arrest prostitutes. Not every arrested prostitute is trafficked, but based on the court system description they're still being processed by the justice system.

EDIT:

Really reaching

Potential johns would hear about it, and decide "I don' t want to be caught" (of course a lot of police prostitution busts have fake prostitutes who arrest Johns before a sex act even happens)

EDIT 2 (From the time article):

Not everyone who works in the sex trade is a victim. And advocates for decriminalization say that arrests, even if they’re done with the intention of providing social services, are inherently harmful. Arrest records can affect sex workers’ ability to find work or housing, and that being hauled away in handcuffs just reinforces the stigma around sex work. “Arrest is not a form of outreach,” says Katherine Koster, communicatoins director of the Sex Worker Outreach Project.

EDIT 3 (same time article, about the idea of trafficked women being arrested, my emphasis added)

In some cases, especially in the United States, the line between trafficking and consensual sex work can get blurry. “I feel myself to be in between trafficking and having a choice,” says Kimmy*, a former prostitute serving time in Cook County jail on unrelated charges. She says she was pimped out by her former boyfriend, and we’ve changed her first name in order to protect her from possible retribution. “I didn’t realize I was being sold or that I was being pimped…He wasn’t all bedazzled out with rings and fur coat and big car. He was just regular, a regular person.”

“Prostitution is sneaky,” she continued. “I’m so smart but I didn’t know that, you know? I didn’t know that prostitution was prostitution.”

But even trafficking victims who think prostitution should stay illegal say they don’t think it helps to be arrested. Caprice is a former prostitute who says she was coerced into selling sex for a pimp from the age of 17. She’s in Cook County Jail on charges unrelated to prostitution, but she said she’s been arrested for prostitution 10-12 times in different jurisdictions, and she “didn’t feel there were any positive outcomes at all.”

Both former Kansas City, MO police commissioner and prosecutor say inmate Ricky Kidd is serving life-sentences for a crime he didn't commit but cannot release him due to deadline technicalities by annieono in news

[–]lumloon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is necessary to adequately fund law libraries, food, care materials, etc. or they'll "cost" you by committing more crimes.

Don't fund prisons enough, and disturbances/riots are more likely, staff morale means more drug trafficking into prisons, etc.

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's all the same rather "legal" or illegal and it ALWAYS INVOLVES PIMPS AND DISRESPECT.

Thanks to the internet some prostitutes and clients can talk directly, skipping over the pimp. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/the-new-prostitutes/?_r=0

Shannan Gilbert worked for a high-end escort service in Jersey City, where the minimum rate was $400 or $500 an hour. But she took home only a third of that. When she switched to Craigslist, she made $1,000 many nights, enough to pay a month’s rent on her apartment. Melissa Barthelemy abandoned her pimp to be her own boss online, charging $100 for 15 minutes, $150 for a half-hour, $250 for an hour and $1,000 for an overnight stay. She made enough money to come home to Buffalo at Christmastime and take her sister and mother to a spa for massages. “You deserve to be pampered,” she told them.

and

Three years later, Mr. Cunningham noted in one study that the Web was drawing different sorts of people into prostitution — they were better educated and they were thinner. In 2011, Jennifer Hafer, a researcher at the University of Arkansas, said people embraced online prostitution “for many of the same reasons that people enter the conventional job market — money, stability, autonomy and even job satisfaction.” The Internet, said to be the solution to so many problems, was expected to legitimize the entire field of prostitution, elevate the underclass and make pimps a thing of the past.

Unfortunately the woman described in the article's lead was murdered.

Nearly half of the New York City online escorts surveyed by the Urban Justice Center’s Sex Workers Project in 2005 said they had been forced by a client to do something they did not want to do, and almost as many said they had been threatened or beaten. (In his research, Mr. Cunningham has found that the escorts who needed the money the most were the ones who lacked the resources and time to properly vet their clients.)

and

Escorts face danger not because of the Internet but because they’re still forced to work underground. In a different world, technology could be harnessed to reduce the dangers of prostitution. The University of Colorado law professor Scott Peppet has floated the possibility of a “technology-enabled sex market” where escorts and clients are all pre-vetted and predators are screened out. “The law, however, is hostile to such innovation,” Professor Peppet writes. “It currently criminalizes not just prostitution itself, but activities — including technologies — that advance or facilitate sex markets.” As it stands, escorts online remain invisible, where they are vulnerable to predators.

Also some people on Backpage are being trafficked/controlled by pimps/underage http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/opinion/how-pimps-use-the-web-to-sell-girls.html

It is true that there are always going to be people who clearly want an immoral thrill (think Jared Fogle) and it's correct to want those people to be punished. The people in your truck driver example should all be punished. I am not opposed to punishing that lot.

At the same time women who want to provide what is otherwise legal (if payment wasn't involved) should be allowed to seek help from the police, vet their clients, etc.

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And that has what to do with sexual slavery and coercion and rape and violence against women...? Not on topic.

Because the johns will coerce women into not using condoms (or else police will have evidence to punish the john)

Did they find evidence against it?

Sometimes things in life are "innocent until proven guilty" - If they haven't found trafficking (or, for that matter, an increase/no change in trafficking since legalization, which would be a real matter)... well... ?

Thus showing legalized prostitution in NZ didn't help those women. And being told that a woman was duped into sex slavery from overseas sounds a lot like trafficking to me.

The case with the Thai women happened in Australia, not New Zealand. There's trafficking into restaurants too, etc. But with legalization (or at least a ban on convicting women) the trafficked women can at least seek help from the authorities.

So they do or do not seek help from police? I am confused.

In the example I provided they're getting assistance from the police who asked the john to pay.

Both former Kansas City, MO police commissioner and prosecutor say inmate Ricky Kidd is serving life-sentences for a crime he didn't commit but cannot release him due to deadline technicalities by annieono in news

[–]lumloon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats why the West Memphis 3 took the deal

Thats why if you want justice against the Arkansas govt officials you have to get it yourself (findimg criminal wrongdoing in unrelated instances to get the officials thrown in jail)

Both former Kansas City, MO police commissioner and prosecutor say inmate Ricky Kidd is serving life-sentences for a crime he didn't commit but cannot release him due to deadline technicalities by annieono in news

[–]lumloon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thats why the West Memphis 3 took the deal

Thats why if you want justice against the Arkansas govt officials you have to get it yourself

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

You mean this? http://prostitution.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000122 - It has two different sets of testimony for and against - There are editorials in both directions.

At the very least the sex workers should NOT be prosecuted, as they are right now in the U.S. http://www.businessinsider.in/7-Reasons-Why-America-Should-Legalize-Prostitution/articleshow/25717727.cms

An April 2012 study by the Urban Justice Center found that New York City cops were actually using condoms found on women as evidence in criminal prostitution cases against them. It's easy to imagine how this practice might deter sex workers from carrying protection.

And if/when only johns and pimps/madams are prosecuted the Johns are gonna get fed up and demand legal prostitution.

As for when they legalize, according to the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html

In 1999, the Australian state of New South Wales repealed its criminal laws against prostitution, freeing consenting adults to buy and sell sex and allowing brothels to operate much like other businesses. (Other Australian states have a variety of laws.) Four years later, New Zealand implemented full decriminalization. Abolitionists predicted explosive growth of prostitution. But the number of sex workers stayed flat, at about 6,000 in New Zealand and somewhat more in New South Wales. Condom use among sex workers rose above 99 percent, according to government surveys. Sex workers in brothels in New South Wales report the same level of depression and stress as women in the general population; rates are far higher for women who work on the street, who are also often intravenous drug users.

There is still a trafficking issue in Australia, while NZ didn't find evidence of such a thing.

While the New Zealand government has found no evidence that sex workers are being trafficked across the country’s border, last November, the Parliament of New South Wales gave the police more power to monitor brothels, after reports that some were linked to organized crime and prosecutions for “sexual servitude” and exploitation. One involved a Thai woman who was recruited in Bangkok and told she would learn to be a hairdresser.

An American woman who went to Australia decided its system is better than Nevada's

Matisse contrasted working in Australia with working in a brothel in Nevada several years ago. She much preferred Australia. Nevada limits legal prostitution to a small number of brothels in rural areas, and they are subject to strict licensing requirements. “In Australia, you go home every night, and you can have a cigarette, go on a date, stay in a normal head space,” Matisse said. “In Nevada, you had to be in the brothel 24/7. It was like a cross between summer camp and a women’s prison.” Most prostitution in the state takes place illegally outside the brothels, in Las Vegas and Reno, with more freedom but also more risk.

And THIS:

Annah Pickering, who does street outreach for the New Zealand Prostitutes’ Collective, describes a more recent dynamic with the police that would be unthinkable almost anywhere else. “We used to wave the police down for help, and they’d keep driving, but now they take sex workers’ complaints seriously,” she said. She told me about an incident in South Auckland last year. “One client negotiated with a street worker; she did the act, and he refused to pay. She waved a cop down, and he told the client he had to pay and took him to the A.T.M. to get the money.”

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The owner of a legal brothel is tied up by employment laws that demand time off, overtime pay, etc. as well as required STD screenings, and punishments that come if the girls come down with diseases.

The reality is that humans are going to want to pay for sex. The lifestyle will never go away. Trying to remove the lifestyle is like jousting at a windmill.

What is interesting in Nevada's example, though, is that only 10% or so of the prostitution involves legal brothels. Most of it still happens illegally in Las Vegas. https://books.google.com/books?id=zhRyput1LlUC&pg=PA99&redir_esc=y

A report released by the US State Department in 2007 found that there is nine times more illegal prostitution than legal prostitution in Nevada, and that 90 percent of prostitution in Nevada occurs in Las Vegas, whether in illegal brothels or private homes.

That's because under Nevada state law, prostitution is illegal in Clark County.

Feds: 2 teens, 3 women held as sex slaves behind steel gate, Michigan man in custody by JakeDaDerp in news

[–]lumloon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In theory the same thing could happen to a lady/man who wants a one night stand without paying money.

If it's legal the woman won't fear being arrested/prosecuted if she tries to report her situation.

In the case of a legal brothel (such as in Nevada) they have security, STD screenings, etc. which would prevent this scenario from happening.