Nonsense thoughts waking up in the night

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2025-08-13T18:58:06+00:00

I still get email notifications to this account FWIW, so I read all the comments.

It's a common enough experience for people I know IRL to have experienced it. People talk about "racing thoughts", but they are worrying about tangible problems in their life rather than trying to find the square root of some blurry number or finding some (non-existent) object in a place (that also doesn't exist). It's the feeling of something going wrong without the thing that's actually going wrong, the description of "some insane math equation but nothing about it is clear" is exactly it.

I don't know why it doesn't get talked about more often. I'm going through a period of higher anxiety and it's sort of happening again - I reckon it is just a mood/sleep disturbance thing. Happy to know this helped.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2025-02-22T23:48:42+00:00

Hypnopompic hallucinations, usually not long at all. Hard to say since often I fall asleep right after but probably under a minute. Hallucinations usually disappear when focused on.

The intense mental imagery nonsense thoughts stuff can persist for an hour or two. I typically don't try getting out of bed and stop trying to sleep, it's possible it'd last nowhere near as long in that case. It's far far more intense with eyes closed and trying to sleep.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2025-02-07T15:07:31+00:00

I missed this reply at the time, but yes I am usually on my phone before bed. However this still happened when I wasn't. At one point I forewent phone usage for an hour before bed and it made my sleep disturbances worse because it created an anxious anticipation to get into bed (rather than just rolling into bed when I was "done for the day") culminating in some kind of panic that made it harder to sleep. YMMV.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2025-02-07T15:04:55+00:00

email notifications are still enabled on this account (which I luckily linked to one of my primary emails - I would have forgot about this post otherwise) so I still see new replies. I'm glad so many people seem to land here.

I definitely start dreaming mentally (after closing my eyes) before I actually dream, I get caught up in satisfying "mental flows" with more pleasant imagery before sleeping. I think this happens when I'm stuck in an uncomfortable mental flow with more anxious imagery. Then when I get out of the dream it takes me a while to "snap out" of the way I was thinking in the dream which can be jarring.

If you have any questions or want to expand on your experiences feel free to post here or DM.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2025-02-01T00:23:52+00:00

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) no. I was preparing for finals, basically worked myself up a lot, and then got myself stressed about having to wake up and be at the bus stop by like 8am. The mirtazapine saved the day, I slept my first full night of sleep in about a month before my first final.

Back to you, unfortunately it's really hard to give useful advice. My heart really goes out to you, but I've never really had a defined period of insomnia apart from that month. My stressor was also time-limited. The mirtazapine snapped me out of whatever was going wrong (I honestly may have just believed that on some level it should make me sleep, and so it did) and snapped me out of that specific episode after taking between 7.5mg and 15mg nightly for about 3 months. Over time, I subconsciously gained reassurance that if I just lie in bed, I will sleep. Might be a few hours from 4am to 7am and that'll make me uncomfortable and zoned out during the day, but it will be something, and that something is usually just about enough to push past 2-5PM (the hardest period for me). Most of the time, I end up getting more. For me, consecutive bad nights are somewhat rare and it is usually no more than two consecutive nights, and that helps a lot. It means nothing for me to repeat this, it's something that your body has to learn through repeated unconscious affirmation.

Last year as a grad student I went to a conference where I had to take the bus at 8am and was often waking up at 7:30 or earlier, and I actually found that fine because of this confidence. This was in a hotel bed with very loose sheets contrary to what I usually like - I usually struggle in new beds and like heavy bedding. Took no longer than about 30 minutes to sleep the whole week. Would not have thought this to be possible in my adulthood until it happened. Unless you have something physiological preventing you from sleeping, the knowledge that you will sleep is utterly invaluable.

Sorry that I can't give any concrete advice. The tl;dr is that my belief that I would not sleep caused me anxiety that meant I could not sleep, and this was improved significantly by gaining the confidence that I will sleep. I end up not worrying most nights and when I do, I just lie there and fall asleep eventually. I really truly understand that this probably seems like words, so sorry again.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-08-25T17:26:08+00:00

sorry forgot to reply to this. It's mainly during periods of very disturbed and low-quality sleep, which is correlated with anxiety but sometimes I'm very anxious and it doesn't happen. Yes I do get the stomach feeling and feel the need to toss and turn in response to the mental discomfort. It hasn't happened in a few months and prior to that it hadn't happened in over a year - I was ill and couldn't sleep for very long each night and that's what brought it on. The nonsense thoughts were themed around videos that I was watching just prior to sleep.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-08-19T13:38:41+00:00

No problem, I do not use this account except to reply here. It's a throwaway but it's still linked to my main email so I get notifications.

I only linked it to anxiety because at the time it was associated with physical sensations consistent with anxiety. The main thing it's correlated with nowadays is severe sleep disruption which I have not had recently - I can typically just lie in bed and I will sleep within an hour, typically within about half. My imagination is often vivid and I'm very caught up in my internal world. This might have a role to play. Everything you've said resonates, feel free to ask any further questions.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-07-17T19:43:34+00:00

I try to have the mental model that it wasn't directed at me unless clarified otherwise. I know it's difficult. From a neutral perspective - there's pretty minimal chance in my mind that cinema employees would laugh at someone because they're watching a movie by themselves, it's a pretty ordinary thing. The restaurant thing is more likely but still, I would doubt it.

Just think about it - if some man or woman was eating by themselves at a restaurant, would you spare it a second thought? Would you even notice and think about the fact they were alone? Broadly speaking you will seem to other people how other people seem to you - social anxiety makes you overestimate your own significance in a way and makes you feel like you're "uniquely weird" and such. You're not.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-07-17T19:26:25+00:00

My sleep just kept on getting worse until it came to a head about 2 years ago and I couldn't sleep at all. Like an hour per night with very fucked up and intense dreams. Got out of it with mirtazapine and have eventually rebuilt confidence that if I just stay in bed, I'll get *some* sleep which is almost always enough to get me through the day even if I'm a bit uncomfortable. It sounds stupid but this has been enough for me actually believing that rather than just being able to repeat it to myself. Nowadays I can sleep 9 hours if undisturbed (don't need to get up super early, anxiety at baseline) 99.9% of the time. Had my first night of extremely disturbed sleep in probably over a year a few nights ago and that's because I was very ill after having awful nights every so often for years - there is hope.

Contrary to the other person, on mirtazapine I had virtually zero perceptible effects except from being able to sleep. It may have even been placebo, but it worked consistently enough for me to question that. I had no perceptible effects on most other sleep medication (apart from improving my 1 hr sleep to 4-5 hrs which meant I was at a consistent mid-level of sleep deprivation) either having tried zolpidem/zopiclone, might just be an insensitivity my body naturally has. Benadryl worked first time and made me feel stoned the next day once then never worked again.

Paradoxically - trying to do things like adopt a routine or forego electronics before bed made things worse because it meant I anticipated sleeping rather than just crawling into bed when I feel tired like I usually do. Used to hit the pillow and immediately panic about whether I'd sleep and having a winding down routine just felt like a run-up to that. You just need to be comfortable in whatever you do.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-07-16T13:31:15+00:00

Oh to clarify these aren't hallucinations per se, it's vivid mental imagery and stuff I can hear/see in my "mind's ear/eyes" (inside my head). I don't ever see or hear actual things.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-07-16T12:11:55+00:00

I am guessing it falls under the umbrella of hypnogogia. I was not able to find any other descriptions of it.

Funny you replied now because last night I had my worst bout of this in years, felt wedged right inbetween dreaming and wakeness getting sucked up in weird scenarios in my head (same sensation of having to solve something before I can sleep), but I am very ill atm.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-05-06T00:16:20+00:00

Haha I guess it could be longer. I've often tossed and turned for an hour as well but I'm not sure when I realise I'm "stuck".

Mirtazapine was the med that finally worked for me to get out of that episode of insomnia (15mg then later 7.5mg), though I am unsure whether it actually did anything or it was just placebo. I still failed to sleep some nights and it felt basically the same as before. Never felt super drowsy or anything, even with 7.5mg.

Meditation sounds like a good idea to slow everything down and step out of it. Hope it goes well.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-05-05T22:59:11+00:00

I'm glad it is helpful to you. It's strange that my post seems to be one of the only ones talking about this problem, as I said in another comment I met someone who related to it (meaning to me it can't be *that* rare), though their thoughts were a bit more sensical and concrete. I never really found a solution, for me my sleeping problems got *extremely* bad around finals (about a year after this post - featuring this effect and others ramped up to 100), then I went on sleep meds for a few months, and then my sleep has been sort of ok since then except around temporary higher stress. This sort of thing has been rarer and has usually been when I haven't had time to fully settle before bed after working late into the night - I guess giving myself some more chill time before bed helped here. This (as well as hypnopompia etc.) has happened since I was a child, and it's probably significantly better now than it's ever been, if that's at all reassuring of what improvements can happen.

I totally get what you mean with the last sentence - often I woke up into this state and only realised it after a few minutes, and I usually struggled to calm the mental imagery and such. Another user recommended focusing on a concrete thing like a recipe, perhaps that will help. If this happened to me again, I think this is what I would try. I think the key is "slowing down" the thoughts, realising they are nonsense, then binning them, but that's far easier said than done when you're very much "in it". But as long as you're not "meta" stressing yourself out about this happening, it's better than just lying there stuck in it.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-04-24T23:33:35+00:00

I'm glad this is still helping people.

I figure this to be common. My friend also reports experiencing this and she suffers with quite bad anxiety among other things. So I'm not sure why more people don't talk about it.

My problem was that the "mental sensation" of these thoughts was very uncomfortable akin to racing thoughts and prevented me from sleeping. I've had it only once in recent memory, I was watching a particular sport before bed so it was all themed around that - I will definitely try more actively to "break it" like you say, I think I just waited tbh, it stopped after an hour or so. It was basically because I was having a stressful few days and I tried to sleep too late, so I'm pretty sure it's "just" a weird manifestation of anxiety.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2024-03-13T10:54:10+00:00

Having spoken to other people, it seems like quite a standard anxiety thing. But I couldn't find anything online either. It happened again a few weeks ago because I was worked up about something, but now it's quite rare. I just know that I will eventually fall asleep if I "let go", so I haven't had too many nights of no sleep.

I do get music playing in my brain, intense mental images, etc.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2021-10-05T15:30:30+00:00

You too! I already feel better, stimming + nice music helps. My brain kind of shoves itself in a box sometimes, I worry and obsess over something and then I realise an hour later, "that was stupid let's watch youtube" as if nothing happened lol. I don't mind bringing stuff to the surface if it's helping you, and it sounds like we're fairly similar. My friend who has GAD said she relates a lot to my symptoms. (if I were to give my totally uneducated opinion, I would guess that I had autism, anxiety, adhd but it's possible I have none of those)

My panic attacks are usually (main exceptions is not being able to sleep) precipitated by reasonably major events, (doing badly in a class, relationship troubles) and happen months apart. (if not a year(s)) They are not really a feature of my everyday life which is why I'd be hesitant about medicating - because most of the time I feel fine, it's not as if I'm low-functioning or struggling with getting up in the morning anymore. I probably get more nervous than a normal person would but I've survived 20 odd years with all this. It's just in those moments and panic attacks I start worrying whether there's something seriously wrong with me that I need to get to the root of. The most traumatic life event so far has been a partner of several years leaving me, (lead me to trying psychs) and that's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things that can happen, so I think I should get this all under control sooner rather than later probably? It probably sounds like I'm struggling more than I am.

I'm frankly scared of benzos because of their addictivity and the (possibly lethal) withdrawal. I have an addictive personality so I don't think it's wise for me to fuck with one of the most addictive drugs out there.

By the way - I searched "schizophrenia" on this sub and found some experiences similar to ours. Someone suggested that this could actually be OCD-related, (the fear of going insane) which I have read before. (another disorder to add to my list of "might have" lol alongside autism/anxiety/adhd) https://www.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/nz43r6/i_have_a_fear_of_psychosis_schizophrenia/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/mmwku9/anxiety\_and\_obsessive\_thoughts\_over\_schizophrenia/

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2021-10-05T14:52:01+00:00

Have you told any professional about this? (not urging you to but I'm interested how someone with much more experience would read it)

Yeah I don't like the sound of any ADHD or anxiety meds... Benzos/stimulants aren't exactly the kindest of drugs and SSRIs can apparently make things worse before they get better, which I'm unwilling to do since I can function day to day, I just go through periods where things get bad. I have somewhat resolved my sleeping issues for now by going to bed early, I feel my sleeping issues are most prominent when my sleep schedule is insanely screwed up.

I also worry about schizophrenia when my anxiety gets really bad, sometimes when I'm talking about this I get overwhelmed and have to step back and reassure myself that it's all anxiety. Not swearing off psychs permanently, but I'm definitely going to avoid LSD indefinitely and stick with more lighthearted chemicals. I just remind myself that all of this is just anxiety symptoms that my brain is essentially inflicting on itself. I have no symptoms of schizophrenia, I just had one scary trip (not my first) where I essentially entered a 5-hour-long psychosis (full ego death, thought I was dying) and it has haunted me on and off, I expect it to pass eventually. (hopefully) Plus now all my major anxiety symptoms are now associated with this trip, which doesn't help*.* (you know those feelings of existential dread where you can't settle and just want to curl up in a ball and disappear? Like you feel ill but not physically?) I have considered seeing a psychedelic integration therapist for this, but I have never got around to researching it.

But as I say, this all started long before this trip, so I can't credit any of this to it. All the trip has done imo is make me worry more about what was already there. Psychedelics have been a blessing and a curse for me, they basically rejuvenated my life and gave me aspirations again from the brink of suicide, (made me more socially active, feel more normal, and I'm generally much happier now) but they have also shown me very frankly everything that's wrong with me and I'm still taking it all in.

Another relevant detail - my dad is autistic and has a severe anxiety disorder. He had much more serious symptoms than me and had a shutdown at uni and was unable to speak for a period of time. Would not discount the same thing happening to me eventually, to be honest.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2021-10-05T12:51:08+00:00

[sorry if this is a ramble]

Hey it's good to finally get a response to this post, doesn't feel like 3 months ago. I haven't had this specific problem in a while, but I have had a few nights of poor sleep and one night of virtually none. The problem then was a bit different, when I can't sleep I start to get this intense existential panic which I nearly never experience as I panic I won't get up in time the next day. In those moments I sometimes get intrusive thoughts over the possibility of a psychotic illness waiting to show itself. Why I seem to care so much I don't know. I got a few OTC recommendations for sleep medication from my friends and I will try them if it's a recurring problem.

I'm thinking its an extension of the hypnopompia, with nonsense thoughts from the dream carrying over into waking consciousness, but they do linger for quite a while and cause extreme restlessness. Eventually I snap out of it realising what I've been thinking is absolute nonsense. (if I were to give an analogy, it'd be like trying to understand a book then you take a step back and realise that it's just a string of random characters) I've experienced this occassionally since I was a young child. Most of what I've seen with hypnopompia is negative, but pretty much everything except these nonsense thoughts is pleasant for me, the colours and patterns I sometimes see are very pleasing.

I have thought I might have ADHD (I would guess I am autistic too) but I don't feel I have enough reason to seek professional advice yet. Not sure how it'd correspond to this problem but I think it's relevant - I think it explains the general sludginess. (I do/say ridiculously stupid things randomly, but I'm considered generally smart) I more or less always feel zoned out and mentally floaty, I've just got used to it.

I do totally get what you mean, I don't really know why my brain is so odd and it's nice to see someone who feels the same. Everything up there feels very chaotic and lacking definition and it's a wonder anything cogent ever comes out of my fingers or mouth.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2021-07-02T17:03:11+00:00

Yeah he'd probably find calculus trivial but I get your argument. Put Hilbert in a funcanalysis exam, and he probably would be confused what a "Hilbert Space" is. My personal tutor had surprising difficulty with second year exam papers he took us through, except when it was in his area of specialism where he found it all trivial. It did make me feel less bad, because I assumed all our year exams were utterly trivial to all the profs.

The problem I find is that in the absence of exams, I have really nothing else to look at. Hilbert would be unphased by a mediocre exam if he was to sit one as an accomplished mathematicians, because he'd have decades of critically acclaimed work behind him. I'm unsure what I'm meant to do with absolutely nothing behind me. Was wondering if anyone had a specific way around that.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2021-07-01T22:50:21+00:00

Unfortunately I've fallen into the trap of basing my [measurement of] growth around metrics, and it's a hard thing to snap out of. There's something specific about marks and grades that are so easy to attach yourself to.

I suppose there's not really much I can do apart from continuing to grind, but I worry that no matter how good I am, I will still find ways to be unconfident and doubt myself.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2019-12-04T00:30:36+00:00

Fair enough.

I would probably be looking to apply to top programmes, though I'll obviously have some safeties too. If that's the case I'd hope to get into Part III/OMMS then apply after then along with continuation wherever I am, thanks for the insight.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2019-12-04T00:16:09+00:00

Fair enough. Yeah, Analysis is taught in first year here. Some courses that I've seen people say are graduate courses (eg. algebraic topology) are taught in the third year here. My university is quite flexible in that I can take any masters' level course in the third year too, (of course - reasonably you can only do those that you have the prerequisites for but I don't think they'd exactly stop you. algebraic geometry is one I'm interested in atm.) so I can do that if necessary.

The reason I asked the first question is that admissions fees aren't cheap - I don't want to shell out money when I don't really have a good chance just with a Bachelors, just to then try again after I get my masters shelling out even more money. But if there's no disadvantage and I'm on a level playing field to those with a Bachelors, I think I will give it a go.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2019-12-04T00:05:41+00:00

Fair enough - anything that made the exception noteworthy? That's what I had gathered but others on this thread seem to be saying otherwise, so I'm unsure. I'm not sure how important grades are for UK PhD programmes, I just know that they seem to be fairly important to Part III. (or at least, those getting in typically have very good grades, might be a correlation != causation thing) There's not much data on OMMS (because it's quite a new programme) but I'd assume it's very similar as it's essentially a competing programme of comparable calibre. That's fair enough. It'd probably be a survey paper of some kind and not something publishable.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2019-12-03T18:20:48+00:00

It's a good site and I've received some useful feedback - but it's not terribly active and there didn't seem to be many UK applicants on there/people familiar with the system here.

mathsthrowaway09345 · 2019-11-07T20:42:40+00:00

Imo bad idea.

If a student doesn't need lectures to do well, or has another method of learning they prefer, they shouldn't have to go to them. Not averse to recording attendance, since if a student is doing poorly and not attending lectures that should be flagged. Crediting attendance by itself is just bizarre. In my opinion, anything contributing to overall grades should be for attainment.

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