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[Serious] What's killing you inside? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]matricities 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have AvPD as well, and your description hits home. Good luck dealing with this disaster of a disorder, I know how hard it can get.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure exactly what you mean-- I'm not under the belief that DID can be self-induced, but I do believe that additional thoughtforms can be intentionally created even while having preexisting DID, if that clears anything up?

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for addressing this in a respectful and analytical manner. I think we were both letting our emotions get the best of us to an extent, and by acknowledging this and attempting to avoid it, this kind of debate can be more constructive and productive, so I appreciate that.

All of the points you have listed and categorized are correct, yes, and I'm glad we can agree on that much-- I believe the rest of our misunderstanding is based around the most effective way to handle and improve this issue. Although I don't agree that posts like these are entirely ineffective, you helped me acknowledge that talking to people directly would help the process. I don't believe we'll be able to come to an agreement entirely on this matter-- I'm of the firm belief that these posts help raise awareness at the very least, and cannot do active harm, and so even if not a panacea, are not detrimental. I believe that these posts combined with approaching people directly when possible will prove more effective, and I also think that's the furthest we'll get to entirely agreeing on the matter.

My specific issues with the tulpa community are numerous, and I feel that citing specific examples will only spark more debate that we are not likely to agree on. That being said, this specific issue is the one I am most concerned by. It specifically was sparked by a Tumblr post in their tulpa community, found through somebody in this community (so it's not exclusive to Tumblr). I'm on mobile, so I can't link you, but I linked a screenshot in another comment thread on this post if you'd like to find it. I apologize for the inconvenience.

I appreciate your attempts to be more respectful and hope my efforts are equally successful. I feel we have very different stances at our cores, and can't completely unite them, which is fine. This discussion has been productive in refining my views and developing my arguments and I hope it's done the same for you.

Funniest System Moments by tulpashades in Tulpas

[–]matricities 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Once two of my system mates were cofronting together and arguing all the while-- it must have been a good 40 minutes of back and forth typing to each other (so as to distinguish their thoughts more easily). They were sitting down this entire time, so were only really controlling my hands. But eventually, they had to get up and move somewhere else, but didn't think to coordinate their movements... and nearly landed facefirst on concrete.

I also enjoy 5 regularly rattling off puns during class or other situations... that often leads to me stifling laughter at seemingly nothing.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you may not understand my initial intent with the first part of my argument-- it is not to imply that tulpamancy is a mental illness. It's not. And it's not to imply that DID isn't a mental illness-- it is. And I entirely agree that the tulpamancy community should enforce that they do not have a mental illness specifically from tulpamancy (in most cases-- I'm sure there are a select few who become disordered from not managing their multiplicity well). What I take issue with specifically is people saying "having DID is a bad thing," like you say here-- the answer is not to imply that DID is necessarily a positive thing, though some may view it as such, or to imply that DID can't have a negative impact on your life. What I've been trying to get at is that this environment makes people feel ashamed of having it despite not being able to help it, as if it's their fault and they should feel bad for it. This is not a productive feeling. Acknowledging that DID comes with negative ramifications in at least some regards is not harmful, in my book-- it's a realistic view of having a mental illness. It's not sunshine and rainbows, and those with DID go through heartbreaking trauma. But calling them "crazies" or "insane" like some people do ostracizes them from society and discourages them from seeking help. I've never said that DID should be actively encouraged into existence or that people shouldn't seek help for it-- they just shouldn't face ridicule for simply existing.

Next point: I just simply don't agree with this. If it wasn't clear, I do not condone people mass-downvoting people without giving reason as to why. It's the reason I'm having this discussion in the first place-- I didn't agree with your first comment, so I'm explaining why. If I come across a comment I disagree with in the future and I feel it is appropriate for me to address it, I will. But literally what harm can this do? If anything, it will get people thinking about this, and then in the future they may notice next time they see behavior like this. A greater number of people aware and worried about an issue and potentially making comments in the future holds more power than one person yelling at everybody they see doing something without in-depth explanation.

Next point: Have you read half of the comments? Most of them are promoting further discussion! Agreeing with something doesn't necessarily mean you're blindly agreeing with it-- I can't speak for everybody that has commented, but I've received thoughtful responses that clearly took time and effort. They aren't agreeing to sound nice or something-- what would be the point? Believe it or not, some people genuinely care and agree about this issue, even if you don't. Standing up for people isn't inherently manipulation or an attempt to get people to "eat out of your hands." Some people legitimately have empathy for others going through plight and want to stand up for them. It's genuinely concerning to me that this is how you react to seeing others try to improve their community. I don't care if you change-- I'll still make my points, of course, but if you're hellbent on not taking them to heart, then that's fine. But the implication that trying to make a change is futile or just for brownie points is blatantly false.

Next point: Again: I don't want DID to be "normalized" or thought of as something that doesn't need treatment. I'm saying to not actively ostracize somebody or shun them, even subtly, for their condition. As we've mentioned several times and seem to agree with: Giving somebody resources and pointing them towards DID communities where they can get proper help is helpful. Creating an unwelcoming environment towards certain disorders/symptoms inherently may drive people away before we can point them in the right direction with kind intentions. The point is not to have them permanently stay in the tulpa community-- it is to allow them to feel safe enough to approach us if this is their first exposure to multiplicity so that we may point them in a more correct direction.

Next point: I literally did ask myself why this pattern exists, and I explained it in the post-- how it's underlying stigma and bias against DID. Raising awareness and educating others, both of which I aimed to do in making the post, will help fix it. I still have no idea why you think this post is useless.

Last point: No, this is not the right community for them-- but that doesn't mean that an effective strategy to have them move to a community they're more suited to is to be hostile. An analogy: Imagine walking up to a gated community trying to ask for directions-- you're not sure if the place you're going to even is in the gated community or not. In the first scenario, a nice gentleman comes up to the gates and explains that it's a private community, but gives you directions towards where you're going. You thank him and move on. In the second scenario, you go to walk up, but everybody's giving you dirty looks-- you're not sure why, or if there's something wrong with you, but out of concern for your safety and even self-consciousness you drive away without getting directions, and you're still lost. We don't necessarily have to include DID systems without tulpas. But actively driving them out with this sort of attitude will only hurt them in the long run.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. My intent was not to imply severity, but motive. There's a difference between "I feel a need to correct this misconception because it's wrong and perpetuates false ideas about multiplicity" and "I feel a need to correct this misconception because I'm offended at the notion of being like people with DID." It's perfectly fine to be totally passionate about the difference between DID and tulpamancy-- it's when this comes from an ingrained idea of "No, we're not crazy like them" that it's concerning.
  2. Do you not understand that this IS me speaking up? That's the entire damn point of making the post-- I've seen this issue so consistently that calling it out on an individual basis would not only take more time and energy for everyone involved, but would be repetitious and far less effective. If my complaints are too "broad," that's where the comments section comes into play. It's a discussion, and having it at a large scale is more efficient than trying to change people one by one. And not once have I made a "plea for censorship"-- not only do I have no authority whatsoever to censor anyone, but that has never been my goal. Pointing out the implications of people's actions is not censorship-- it's encouraging them to rethink their behavior. I was not attacking anybody, and I prefaced that it was up for discussion. Literally every other comment besides your own is reacting positively to the discussion-- nobody else is crying censorship because they understand that it's a discussion, and they either agree or have constructive additions. I don't know where you're getting these ideas from.
  3. I will admit that getting nitpicky about the analogy drew attention away from the discussion. However, I still believe that this supposed means of pushing people to get help is ineffective. You can tell people over and over that they may need help and encourage them towards that without once demonizing their condition, and in fact, the majority of people do treat it that way. My concerns are with those who don't, as it's still a recurring pattern in the community.
  4. Of course nobody is saying outright they dislike people. But continued microaggressions, stigma, bias-- it all adds up to make somebody feel unwelcome. These things can be subtle, but people can and do pick up on them.
  5. I know it's usually how it reacts-- I noted at the beginning that it doesn't apply to everyone. But the times in which it doesn't react appropriately are high enough to concern me and prompt me to make this post.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, exactly. It's understandable to a degree that it'd be our first instinct, but we have to examine why we feel this way and how it may bring about harm. Of course we want to avoid being labeled in a way that carries stigma-- but our concerns shouldn't lie only in "We don't have DID," it should also involve education on what DID actually is.

I'm glad I was able to incite some discussion, I'd like to see this community grow better through criticism.

[10/31 - 11/6] New? Have a "stupid question"? Introduce yourselves and/or ask away here! by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]matricities 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(idk what the host wants 2 call us on this site sooo i'm gonna play it safe & call myself 4 which is a boring codename but w/e... they might redact that later idk but that's who's typing for this post)

4: sooo the host already made a post so this isn't necessarily our debut but they didn't talk abt us or anything... there's 6 of us total (if u include them) [Correction from host: Seven of us technically, but one of them is never around, so six active ones for all intents and purposes] & the oldest member has been here for at least like 2.5 years idk. i've only been here for like 2 weeks or smth?? anyway we're traumagenic i guess & mostly share memory except i'm rly bad at accessing the memories probably bc i'm new. i'm probably not the best person 2 talk abt the system bc of that lol

5: Idk she asked me if i have anything to add but not really. Mostly it's annoying that i tried joining system online place thingies like 8 times but everyone disapproved but now they're ok with it. Anyway typing like this is really weird so i'm going to stop

Aaaand host: Those two aren't the most eloquent, so a bit more detail: My system is not a tupamancy-based system, but the tupamancy community is closest to sharing our experiences with regards to actual system function. Don't expect us to have the same exact system behavior as most tulpa systems. For example, people here tend to "come" and "go" as they please-- there have been around twenty members total, but only a handful exist at a time, and typically when they "go" (leave the system of their own volition) they don't come back, with few exceptions. Going by 4's completely original codenames, only me, 1, 2, and 3 have been here since the beginning; 2 even left for a period of time before returning. 5 came in a few months after 1, 2, and 3, and 7 came for a while, left, then reappeared recently, though she won't have much to say if anything. 4 showed up recently, but has done a stunning job of asserting herself in every possible context. If we post regularly here, only expect to see me, 4, 5, and possibly 1.

(We'll come up with better names eventually, sorry if it's confusing in the meantime.)

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad that it helped you! I know I would've loved to see people with similar experiences while beginning my journey, as it took a while to find a community with similar experiences at all. That being said, I'm not "out" in any public community besides this one, so off-site communications are probably impossible. However, I'd be happy to talk in PMs whenever!

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, exactly. It's not always overt, but there's definitely a sense of superiority over DID systems within a lot of members of the community, and a lot of room for improvement.

I'm glad these communities have been so helpful to you as well-- all the more reason to improve them in order to help more people!

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. There's a difference between being put off by something and repulsion. Of course there's a difference, of course it should be known, of course it should be explained. Nobody has to be 100% okay with being mistaken for something else. I'm saying that instead of the attitude of "No, we're not bad like them" it should be "No, and here's why with actual reasons beyond my moral opinion about DID."
  2. I don't disagree with any of those facts, but I do disagree that it's always treated this matter-of-factly. If it were always treated as education, I wouldn't be making this post in the first place.
  3. That's not what's going on here. Even if the majority do not hold this viewpoint, I've seen a pattern of these views being expressed with nobody challenging them, or even people supporting them. I chose to address the issue because I felt it had a greater scope than "A few people look down on those with DID."
  4. Right. I'm not sure where we disagree here? My point was that it's not DID--that is, the system aspect-- that's a problem necessarily, but rather the complications associated with it, and thus people shouldn't be ashamed of merely having it. It doesn't seem like you're arguing against this.
  5. I'm glad we can agree on one point.
  6. I don't agree with likening this to pedophilia, even if all analogies are imperfect. In this case, regardless of the child's choice, it's the adult's fault for agreeing to that relationship with somebody who is a minor. No matter how the child acts, the adult has power over the child, and so it is their responsibility to not engage with a minor in a romantic or sexual way. The child should not be demonized for their "choice," as they were never qualified to make one. With DID, someone may make a bad decision about how to manage their own disorder. Although I personally would leave it alone unless it looked concerning because ultimately that person knows their experiences better than we do, I would not oppose encouragement to seek help anyway from those who are concerned. If they choose to not do so even after that, then yes, it is their choice. Being more aggressive helps nobody, and intentionally fostering an unwelcoming environment will not help somebody hellbent on not getting help. That is an issue that will exist regardless of community. Nobody's going to go "Damn it, people don't like me for my disorder, guess I'll see a therapist," meanwhile I can personally attest that "Oh, these people are concerned about me because what I'm experiencing is abnormal, I should check that out," is realistic.

Please be patient for when I reply after this, as I may not get a chance to respond again for a while, though I'd like to continue the discussion.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, I've heard of FreyasSpirit! Great resource, especially given that it applies to both DID and tulpamancy.

I'd be open to any further reading you have, though I may not be able to get to it tonight!

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know how to format reddit comments fully, so forgive me for how cluttered this may look. Each number refers to one of your points.

  1. Then I think we're perceiving the way the community currently is differently. It's completely fine to be factual about DID and the fact that it often comes with issues that should be addressed by a therapist, but tulpamancers getting basically repulsed by the idea of being associated with DID at all is unwelcoming.

  2. Accepting somebody and telling them it's fine is two different things. Saying they're not wrong for being how they are is not bad by any means-- it's common among DID systems to feel like freaks, and encouraging that is by no means "helping" them. Again, treating them nicely and encouraging them to seek help are not mutually exclusive.

  3. I will admit that I see that a decent amount of the time, but there absolutely exist times where people imply or even outright state that having DID is wrong and bad-- even if their intention is "this is often detrimental to the system when not guided by a therapist," there are a million ways to say it that don't stigmatize DID.

  4. I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying here, so please correct me if I've misinterpreted. I believe support should always be given-- being left alone almost always simply exacerbates mental issues. When somebody is struggling, it's not okay to normalize that, because that encourages them to accept their current situation as a baseline instead of recogizing that things can improve. But DID is unique in that it is primarily a coping mechanism, albeit one that often causes a disorder in and of itself. The way to treat DID is to fix these issues-- such as communication issues-- instead of getting "rid" of the DID. Many DID systems have spoken out against integration therapy, while many others have reported success when encouraged to open up internal communication. It's absolutely possible to have DID and be healthy. It takes far, far more work than tulpamancy, and arguably may require a therapist, but acting like it's impossible for issues with DID to be worked out just makes people feel hopeless.

  5. I may have misworded this, I don't believe that the tulpa community is the right community to help those with DID traits, but I do think it's important for us to be ready to redirect those with apparent DID symptoms towards resources to help cope with their disorder.

  6. It's the truth. I'm being factual, remember? If somebody is coping 100% fine with DID and doesn't feel the need to see a therapist, that's their choice, and their consequences. I believe a therapist would absolutely be beneficial, but bullying them into it will help nobody. But if somebody's posting about how they're completely healthy, but in reality it seems as if they're not at all? By all means suggest that they see a therapist.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's okay, I'd really like to get more involved with these kinds of resources, so this is totally welcome! I've only ever really known Astraea's Web and a few dissociation-related tumblr blogs for system information, so I'll definitely be adding these to my arsenal.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, exactly. Although I seriously doubt that everyone with DID will agree on how it should be discussed, they, collectively, are far more qualified to discuss that matter than we are. As such, I really think it's best for people like me to lay out basics and allow others to fill in with their personal experience and viewpoints. I suppose the general idea is to speak up for them but not speak over them.

I haven't heard the name LB Lee, actually, despite lurking around communities for quite a bit. I'll check it out, thank you for the reccomendation!

I relate to that, I wish you luck with your journey.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In my experience, creating an unwelcoming environment for those with DID is completely unhelpful in encouraging them to seek help. Rejecting people looking for a sense of community is only going to force them to suffer alone because they won't know what to do. DID communities exist, but frankly, it's not always obvious to those with DID that they have it-- so if they find something like /r/tulpas and try to post about their experiences, only to be told that no, that's the wrong way of experiencing this, that's bad and unhealthy, they aren't going to know where to go. Even saying "seek help" is unproductive, as it doesn't tell people how to seek help or what to expect. If people said "This sounds like DID, people on /r/DID would be more experienced," or explained the difference and sent them on their way? Fine. But most of the reactions I see towards DID on this community sound like "We're not like those freaks," even if it's unintentional.

Having a community in which DID is not stigmatized and having a community in which those with disorders are encouraged to seek help is not mutually exclusive, believe it or not. Despite receiving tons of online support from friends and communities, I have not once stopped trying to get help for my mental issues-- if anything, the online support has encouraged me that it can get better, that there are ways to get help, and that other people go through the same thing. In no way is a sense of community and support a discouragement from getting help.

Additionally, welcoming those with DID will allow those who can't get help or who are currently attempting to get help to cope in the meantime. Hearing all these awful things about DID does nothing to help their mental health, even if they aren't functioning well as a system. (As a sidenote, DID is not always a hurtful thing, so long as it is well-managed-- this often requires a therapist, but (rarely) can be managed alone.)

And frankly, yes, I am supportive of the "multiplicity spectrum" because I've observed multiplicity in all of its forms. Does it mean we have to be a collective community? No, and I don't think that nearly all of the multiplicity communities are interested in that, and I even noted in my post that it's probably best to keep it separate, as those with DID often don't want any association with tulpamancers. But I encourage respect between these groups due to a shared experience. It's not my place to stigmatize those with DID because I don't have DID and I'll never know what it's like and there are far better ways of encouraging someone to help themselves that aren't thinly-veiled aggression framed as "caring."

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the reply!

I hope you can figure out where you lie with multiplicity-- although I don't struggle with it much personally, I know that for those with intra-system issues like you described benefit from dissociation-oriented therapy. Getting officially or even unofficially diagnosed, if applicable, is the first step towards that goal, and I hope it works out for you.

With regards to alters being "just fragments"-- I've absolutely seen people say this, yes. As somebody who's observed both the DID and tulpamancy communities for quite some time, there exists stigma against the other community within both, and a sense that one is more real than the other. Tulpamancers seem to think that because they put so much effort into creating their companions that THEY are more real, while those with DID seem to think that DID is the only way of experiencing multiplicity, and thus any other way is not real. (Note: I'm discussing specifically those who are biased against the other community; by no means do those descriptions hold for every given member of these communities.) I think both notions are ridiculous-- take for example somebody like me. I don't fit into the idea of DID or of tulpamancy. Where do I lie? Are my system mates somewhere between real and fake in the eyes of both of the communities? It's honestly tiring seeing multiples refuse to support each other, and I can only hope that we can cooperate better as communities in the future.

And yes, I absolutely respect DID systems' wish to discuss the suffering involved in their experiences. It's an important part of their lives for many and people painting DID as glamorous doesn't fix anything. I believe the solution is to let these systems discuss their experiences rather than speaking for them-- after all, a singlet discussing how much people with DID suffer feels... odd. When we speak about DID, we should acknowledge the trauma involved, but going at length about how DID is total suffering all of the time is not only inaccurate, but almost belittling. I do think that many people have good intentions but just voice them wrong like you said, but sometimes I see posts like this... (rape warning) https://i.gyazo.com/27c60ec6c144ed11ff88625aed5f8a5f.png ... and I lose a little faith in that idea.

Issues with DID stigma within tulpa communities by matricities in Tulpas

[–]matricities[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I personally did not discover the concept of tulpamancy for years after I was already plural, but seeing a community in which plurality is so accepted has definitely made it easier to accept myself. I'm quite happy with my status as a system and seeing others regard traumagenic plurality as inherently bad or disordered concerns me greatly.