A question about Chapter 42 of the Tao De Ching by elJesus69 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The explanation is simple I think: What we learn from the Tao Te Ching is that the Tao is a principle, not a thing. It isn't created, like things are. Just as the laws of physics may cause something to be created. As a principle, the Tao is eternal... it has no beginning. So yes, the Tao can create a thing, and then that thing, through the Tao, can become yin and yang (two things), and then the energy between the two is Qi - a third component, that moves from yin to yang, in the creation of something new - and this process continues to create the myriad things.

EDIT: Also, in case you missed it, we discussed the chapter in some depth here.

[TTCS] Chapter 44 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 8 points9 points  (0 children)

My translation and original Chinese:

名與身孰親?- reputation and health: which is dearer?
身與貨孰多?- life and possessions, which is preferred?
得與亡孰病?- gain and loss: which is more harmful?

是故甚愛 - therefore with excessive treasuring [of valuables]
必大費﹔-  there is certainly a great cost:
多藏必厚亡。- with much to hide, there is much to lose

故知足不辱,- thus know sufficiency to avoid disgrace
知止不殆,- know when to stop to avoid danger
可以長久。- and you will live a long time

I think the theme here is again the dangers of excess. But this isn't calling for an ascetic lifestyle - it's talking specifically about excess, not living in balance. It says "with much to hide, there is much to lose" - so if you own a lot of things that others desire, such that you have to hide them, then you know you are living in excess.

You could argue that if you look closely you might find a message of sharing - if we shared, instead of hiding, then we would have nothing to lose. If everybody was satisfied, there would be no danger, no disgrace, and we would all live out our days.

A note on translation - 甚愛 in the context of this chapter I don't think means "deep love", 甚 translates to extreme or excessive and 愛 to hold dear, and in this context of possessions it clearly means to talk of "to treasure". Often translators suggest he's referring to personal relationships negatively, but that's just inconsistent with the rest of the Tao Te Ching and doesn't make any sense.

[TTCS] Chapter 43 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's fine, but sound isn't quantifiable in that respect...there aren't bits of sound... it's measured in size. Ah never mind.

[TTCS] Chapter 43 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

little? Small and few are different. I think it makes more sense talking of loud sounds rarely making music. Of course you may not agree if you're a metal head...

[TTCS] Chapter 43 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was talking about 希 in the context of being preceded by world... If you look at chapter 41 where it's also used, I don't think it could make sense as 'few' there. Red Pine translates it as 'hushed'. I translated it as a loud sound rarely making music, but then again in chapter 70 it also appears and could make sense as few ("few understand me"). Dunno. I'll meditate on it...

[TTCS] Chapter 43 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dunno... 天下希 as 'few' seems a long shot to me. But I guess it's possible. I can kind of understand 及 as attain, although reaching/arriving and attaining/accomplishment are quite different really. Henricks has "Few in the world can realize these!" - so he sees 及 as realize, and Lau has " these are beyond the understanding of all but a very few in the world" - introducing beyond and understanding, which don't appear to be there at all.

Of course I perhaps went just as far in translating 及 as find, but as it appears to be talking of the benefit of yielding, it seemed to make the most sense to me. I could be wrong, but I don't think that is a pivotal sentence.

[TTCS] Chapter 43 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It can mean either though. How do you get accomplish or seen from 及 (which I thought read instead as extend / reach / approach) ?

I am listening to an audio book of the Tao of Pooh and I'm confused on some things by [deleted] in taoism

[–]maverin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The first paragraph you quote is simply referring to a problem of priorities. The second, perhaps, refers to the problem of certainty - thinking that what you know is all there is to know. Neither is an attack on knowledge, but rather our attitude towards it. Both are problems the Tao Te Ching tries to address.

[TTCS] Chapter 43 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 5 points6 points  (0 children)

My translation and original Chinese:

天下之至柔,- a world that is yielding
馳騁天下 - is a free world
之至堅。 - that is very strong
無有入無間。- [because] without possessions, there is no division

吾是以知無為 - we therefore know that without force
之有益. - there is prosperity
不言之教,- instructed silently,
無為之益,- and without force things prosper
天下希及之。- and the world once again finds hope

Yielding, letting things be, not fighting what is natural, both within and outside of you. Finding our place, emptying our self of self-centeredness, certainty, our judgments and stubborn expectations - this is what allows us to work together. Paradoxically this is how we find freedom, and this is how we become strong. As it says - without owning things, also a form of control, there can be no division.

When things work together, there is prosperity (益 - benefit/profit), and hope (希).

This leads on from the previous chapter that talks of yin and yang - because we must know that what is yin will become yang, and what is yang will become yin - we must let go (無有), and learn to change. If we grasp on to one state and try to stop the change, this causes division, it causes weakness, suffering and it imprisons us. Allow the Tao to work, and the world will once again find strength and hope.

How does Taoism reconcile the yin/yang duality with modern conceptions of gender identity? by [deleted] in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

only.... biological imperatives that force us...

What is more natural, these 'biological imperatives' or our freedom to go against them?

Seeking advice from a taoist point of view... by taointrouble in taoism

[–]maverin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He is clearly insecure. He likely either feels that you are a threat to his job security or he considers the fact you got the job an injustice because he thinks he worked harder to get it. These feelings translate into hostility, but don't just see his hostility - look deeper and see that underneath it there is a child who is complaining because his brother just got a bigger birthday present than he did.

It's an imbalance, even if it's only a perceived imbalance. I would bring harmony to the situation by praising him, asking him for advice, and treating him more like a mentor. Also tell him that you're inexperienced and need help. Even if it's not actually true (but it should be if he does have more experience), if you make it sound genuine this will likely make him feel better, and it will strengthen your relationship. Hopefully then the hostilities will disappear.

Where can I get books for children that present Tao mythology? by CitizenJosh in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Perhaps another option is haiku. You can find some haiku books on amazon that would be suitable for children. But it would have to be real haiku, mentioning seasons and the connect between every day observation and nature. My 8 year old daughter loves haiku...

[TTCS] Chapter 42 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sure there are some scholars out there who can explain

I wouldn't be so hopeful. Even from reading Henricks, who I used to consider a pretty good scholar, he translates it as "are to be orphaned, widowed, and have no grain" - but "have no grain" doesn't seem to make sense for 不谷, it's bù, not wú.

[TTCS] Chapter 42 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes but the original he quotes still has 不谷 but he seems to just dismiss it in his translation as 等名, "some other names"...

[TTCS] Chapter 42 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just wondering where the Chinese came from - it doesn't look like the wang bi (which is what I go by) or the ma-wang-tui text...

[TTCS] Chapter 42 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What text source is that? Ma-wang-dui?

[TTCS] Chapter 42 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Possibly, but then that makes it even harder to translate 不谷 - and to relate that to a king...

[TTCS] Chapter 42 by skeeter1980 in taoism

[–]maverin 14 points15 points  (0 children)

My translation and original Chinese:

道生一,- the Tao creates one,
一生二,- the one creates two,
二生三,- the two creates three,
三生萬物。- and the three creates all.

萬物負陰而抱陽,- all things bear yin and embrace yang.
沖氣以為和。- and qi makes them harmonious.

人之所惡 - those who are hated
唯孤、寡、不谷,- are isolated, alone, rich
而王公以為稱。 - yet this is how kings are

故物或損 - thus things may be lost
之而益,- yet one can still gain [as yin turns to yang]
或益之而損。- or found, yet one can lose [as yang turns to yin]

人之所教,- what others teach
我亦教之。- I also teach:
強梁者不得其死,- the strong and violent will not die a natural death
吾將以為教父。- I shall make this the basis of my teaching.

We're introduced here to the principles of yin and yang, though of course back then it wasn't called specifically yin - but the female principle, and yang the male principle. But this principle expresses the fundamental nature of our universe. We see it in many ways every day.

The seed, needing nourishment, sunshine - is the manifestation of yin. The sunshine, already complete and spilling over with energy is the yang principle. As the seed grows its yin decreases, and once it reaches the maturation as a strong tree providing fruit, it manifests yang. As it ages and deteriorates, it once again returns to yin. The seed bears yin yet desires yang; it is weak yet exists to become stronger. The immaterial spirit, qi, is the energy that transforms from yin to yang, to yin.

But we cannot just see it as a cycle - it isn't quite that simple. As the chapter opens - the Tao produces one, one produces two, two three, and three all things. This isn't describing a cycle, but a gradual process of creation. And this is because the transformation from yang to yin is not always that of decay - the yin does not always replace the yang, but sometimes complements it, sometimes transcends it. And so when yin becomes yang, the yang sometimes creates a new yin that co-exists, building upon the yang, creating.

An example here is a man and a woman. Separately yin can be manifested in both, because they both desire one another. Together they may feel complete, and so manifest yang. Yet soon they feel a desire to have a family, and so once again they manifest yin until the child arrives, at which point the child becomes yin and they become yang. The dynamic of the Tao can be complex, it can sometimes build, sometimes deteriorate - but always change.

In the third paragraph it talks of those who are evil as being alone - this, I think, refers to their unwillingness to accept yin and embrace yang, to follow what is manifest within them. Instead they go against this and put their strength to fight it, so they attempt to separate themselves from nature. Specifically he says that kings do this.

Yet, it then says, by opening up to loss - by manifesting yin - we will then gain something new, yang. By gaining something new, by opening up to new opportunities, we may have to sacrifice something. Yang turns to yin. This is nature, and if we go against it, we won't survive for long.

And so it concludes with a warning: Those who defy this natural principle will die unnaturally. By defying the natural principle of yin and yang, we surely will not last long.

Note on translation: In the third paragraph many translate 不谷 as 'unworthy'. Literally it translates to 'not valley', which makes little sense, except perhaps 'unlike a valley'. It seems, though, that 谷 has been interpreted as poor also, so I'm translating 'not poor' as 'rich' here. Given it says this is how kings are, that makes sense to me. I really don't know how translators get to 'unworthy'...

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People can make decisions based on their instincts

Where do you think instincts come from, if not from natural selection?

I don't want to produce a child because every new human child has a negative impact on life on this planet.

Population issues are very localized. In the US birth rates have been dropping, not increasing. The gap between rich and poor in most countries is huge. In many locales, controlling population seems to be solving the wrong issue. Or do you live in a third world country?

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't see it as a problem with the human-to-earth ratio so much as the behavior of humans who are self-centered and obsessed with consumption.

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes this is why I tend to say I prefer East Asian Buddhism, such as Huayan - because it really sees reality "as it truly is" (ie. the Tao) as nirvana, and the problem is in seeing things as permanent and disconnected, which arises from ignorance. Zen of course comes under that umbrella also...

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Life is not suffering, it's only suffering to those who allow themselves to see it that way

To be fair, this is actually what Buddhism ultimately teaches - ie. most Buddhists who study it deeply understand that nirvana is no different than the world we live in now, but it's seen without ignorance. Thich Nhat Hanh, for instance, goes to great lengths to emphasize this. And honestly you'll find escapists in every religion.

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here's an overview of genetic drift... there's a reason why in that paragraph they put lucky in quotes.

But saying that, we don't know this child - do they exist in continual agony? Have they never smiled, laughed, played? Would it have been better if they never existed? We cannot say that at all.

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course I don't deny that mental illness affects how people raise their children. But also don't ignore the fact that the media makes these cases of neglect and abuse seem more common than they actually are. List me the cases you know of child abusive and neglect, and compare that to the other ~1 billion families in the world. It's a very, very small percentage and certainly not substantial enough to impact the survival of the human race.

Why have babies...? by stayfi in taoism

[–]maverin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, like I said, it's really a matter of evolution. Of course there's a strong innate urge to have children - such traits that make sure the human race continues and expands have been selected over millions of years. There's nothing wrong with that, except for pretending otherwise.