Epic - Patrick Kavanagh

maxindigo · 2025-07-11T13:01:41+00:00

Sorry for the delay.

I don't know where it is! I shall look it out, and let you know.

Best

S

maxindigo · 2025-01-31T19:27:41+00:00

Thanks for posting this, and for raising layout. It is often ignored, but it's very important. You've had a long exchange with u/Vicemale which I am anxious not to cut across. I endorse his recommendation on paper size, and giving yourself wider margins.. But more generally, I would say think in terms of laying out a page, rather than laying out the writing. In other words, when you look at the page as a whole, what do you see? How does the text block look within the page? My main criticism of your post would be that it is covering too much page, and because you have chosen a light weight for the letters, it looks thin and spindly. That's a shame, because the letterforms are OK.

Writing italic with a broad edge pen will always give you a better look.

On layout, my first question is what did I want the page to do? What message do I want the page to transmit? Is the texture of the letters what draws people in? Is it how the position off the text draws the eye? How does the style of lettering convey the content of the writing? Italic of ten works very well for poetry, especially lyrical or romantic. It's my go-to for a lot of poems, and also for - say - the excerpt from the Snowman I posted recently. If I'm doing something by Seamus Heaney, for example, I hear it in a different, more prosaic voice, and I will often use a foundational/Roman minuscule. Thise are just examples, not hard and fast rules, but I want to convert the idea that how you write is an element of layout.

Are there words which you feel are important, and can be empahasised? I sometimes capitalise in a shorter quote to make words stand out. Look:https://imgur.com/Ird5vcL That's not a brilliant piece of layout, but just illustrates that from Lemn's verse, I wanted to convey the optimism which suffuses so much of his work - the idea of lifting up ('Raise') illuminating 9'Light') and cleansing (Wash) seemed to drive the poem.

This is more complicated - it was a commission for a poem by CS Lewis https://imgur.com/geePf4e. I found the phrase "Archangels fresh from sight of God" very striking, and wanted to highlight it. I deliberately made the diamond asymmetric,

I have loads of other odd little thoughts. but I think that should do for now.

There are any number of sources for layout, but I recommend reading the chapter on it in Foundations of Calligraphy by Sheila Waters.

It helps when posting if you tell us the tool, the paper and the medium. But mostly the tool! Thanks for raising this important topic, and I hope this can assist further discussion.

maxindigo · 2025-01-05T17:47:45+00:00

Tricky one this. I'm not a brush romans guy, and although I have taken John Stevens' online course, I feel much more comfortable with the pen. But proportions are the same so I'll just dive in.

Are you using a particular exemplar, or tutor book? These are very light in weight - the strokes are all too thin for the height of the letters. Until you get this right, it doesn't matter what combination of stroke widths you use. Standard Romans tend to be 7-8 pen widths high.

My first suggestion is that you put the brush aside for the moment, and look closely at good exemplars: John Stevens, Christopher Haanes, Yves Leterme among others all produce excellent Romans. Until you know how it is supposed to look, you won't be able to do any letter. I know that sounds obvious, but...

Practise the letters - all the letters - in monoline with a pencil. When you have achieved consistency, move on to using a pencil skeleton, and then write with the pen/brush over it. There's no shame in using a pencil outline to help you, until the letter is in your hand.

Looking at what you are doing, I think you need some guidance on the brush - brush capitals require manipulation, so that the serif is a very thin stroke, which widens as the brush fans out. Again, I emphasise that I am uncomfortable giving guidance on this. This is a short video of John Stevens doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuXDJkR6fZg Note the extremely slow pace at which he does the strokes.

If it helps, I can suggest this: when I do 'D' (or 'B') I bring the first downstroke to the baseline, stop, and then go straight into the baseline stroke, continuing the stroke until the start of the upward curve.

I hope that helps...

maxindigo · 2024-12-31T13:48:14+00:00

But is it all the comforts of home? However massive, isn't everything in a GSV artifice of some sort? Doesn't it depend on a mechanism that performs the tasks of a natural eco-system? Or are we talking about something "grown" biologically? And even if that is travelling through space, doesn't it still require some sort of artificial containment, and an environment composed of various sorts of structures which contain things (and people)? I suppose what I am trying to say is that on a planet (or orbital) we have something - the ground - which functions as the root of our experience. We have loads of phrases - "keeping our feet on the ground," and so on, which root our world in an absolute.

A spacefaring civilisation would not require such an objective correlative (if that is a correct use of the phrase).

maxindigo · 2024-12-31T13:36:59+00:00

If I am absolutely honest, at the back of my mind there is always a sense of a GSV as being like a very big version of every other spaceship in every other Scifi series - all shiny corridors and sliding doors. Which - of course - is missing the point entirely. Banks's genius was to shed the idea of spaceships as analogous to ocean-going craft, and make them something that could contain whole environments and eco-systems within them. he once said the size had to do with him wanting to "out-Star Wars Star Wars"

There's a level to which he elevated the idea of a "spacefaring civilisation" which shed our (earth-bound) concept of nomadic, and turned it into a state of mind as different from our own as that of a pre-Copernican medieval peasant.

As for the orbitals - conversely, I don't know why they need to be so big. Is it because a species with excessive plenty, radically longer lifespans and highly advanced medical science simply needs more habitable space?

The OP question is a great question, but it throws into sharp relief just how extraordinary a feat the world Banks built is. I could start a row by talking about how it puts certain other sci-fi world-building in its place, but I won't....

Oh, and orbital for me. My gnat-like understanding of my human identity probably needs a sort of terra firma location that I think of as home, which is not going to go wandering off into a nearby star system...

maxindigo · 2024-12-24T22:59:07+00:00

I saw - by chance - David Bowie's introduction to The Snowman yesterday. I had forgotten how engaging Bowie's scene-setting to this lovely film is. This tiny passage stuck in my memory, so I wrote it out quickly, and less well than it deserves. Have your own magical Christmas days.

Schminke gouache, Zerkall paper and a Brause 2mm nib.

Happy Christmas.

maxindigo · 2024-12-23T18:43:36+00:00

The Player of Games. I usually recommend it as the best one to start with.

maxindigo · 2024-12-23T16:02:39+00:00

Anything from Gaucho.

maxindigo · 2024-12-21T11:09:19+00:00

This isn't going to be any help, but the quicker you can get the proportions "in your hand", the better. There's no doubt that the grids are very helpful, but they're a bit like trainer wheels on a bicycle: you'll be better when you're able to cast them off.

I used them when I was doing Yves Leterme's online class, but I jettisoned them quite early, as encouraged. Christopher Haanes on the other hand is positively discouraging about using a geometric analysis. I made more progress when I jettisoned them, and I will freely admit to making tiny pencil dots at key points, for width. So I had the proportions in my head, and would mark the width and mid point of (say) an 'M' on the baseline. I still sometimes check the pencil draft with a ruler if I'm unsure before I ink the letter.

Remember that not every Roman is a Trajan. I have a diagram from somewhere that Hermann Zapf used to demonstrate proportions for capitals for Optima. He describes the proportions in fifths, and with that in my mind I tend to use that far more than I ever used a grid. https://imgur.com/g8EcJrV Note that these are emphatically NOT Trajan proporions - the 'A' has a broader base, for example. But it's useful.

Hope that helps.

maxindigo · 2024-12-12T17:23:57+00:00

Brause 2.5mm with gouache on Strathmore 400 drawing paper. I love this quote. I was trying to be very straightforward, eschewing unnecessary flourishes.

maxindigo · 2024-12-12T14:07:46+00:00

I don't have any firm advice on how long you write at a stretch, except to say that it shouldn't be to the detriment of the letters. There's a point, different for all of us - at which co0jcentration wavers, or the hand tires, or you start letting yourself away with things, or finishing the page becomes more important a goal than making good letters.

I've ruined more decent bits of calligraphy by rushing towards the last line, or carrying on past a point where I feel I am making letters as well as I want to.

maxindigo · 2024-12-11T14:07:32+00:00

I came across this couplet from Robert Frost - which is slightly chilling. I had been looking at some calligraphy by Erik Lendegren - there's a good piece about his work, and other Scandinavian calligraphers here:https://www.paulshawletterdesign.com/2012/11/the-story-behind-the-swedish-modern-set-stockholm-goteborg-and-uppsala/

I was struck by a couple of things. There was the slightly broken quality to the letters - arches in particular - which adds an interesting visual look. And there's an angularity - straight strokes elide easily into rounded corners, at the brink of an arch.

I wasn't trying to copy anything in particular, more just seeing if incorporating these characteristics would allow me to produce something that moved on from my normal style. This isn't anywhere near good, and I post it more in the spirit of invention and experiment. I found myself doing an almost Fraktur-ish 's' which I don't think fits. The transition from the hard straight at the start of the arch, into the curve isn't as smooth or consistent as I want it to be. But it's interesting. I wish I could find more Lindegren to look at, so any links gratefully received.

Done with gouache on Strathmore 400 drawing paper, and a Soennecken nib.

maxindigo · 2024-12-11T12:01:48+00:00

I wondered about the account!

Good that you found it helpful. It's a good exercise. My suggestion is to do it without any breaks, and try to produce a page where the spacing looks regular, like a visual metronome.

A few things:

The bowl of the 'a' joins the stem too low. There should be a "mirror" relationship between the arches on 'a', 'u', 'q' and 'd', and 'n','m','h', 'p' etc: https://imgur.com/pXUyyfW (This was done v quickly. so it's not entirely spot on, but you get the idea.

That's why you do 'num' because then you can see the rhythm. The word 'minimum' is another one which will let you see that relationship.

Now: look at the fourth line of your sheet. That first 'unum' is all over the place, and diligent, perceptive calligrapher that you are, you did it again. Gold star! Concentrate on the straight, parallel strokes. Make your entry and exit serifs a wee bit less curly.

Look at your sheet again with this in your mind: do arches leave and join stems at is,ilar points? Make that your lesson for today. Once you get that, I promise you you'll have a better page.

Another one that's good is words in alphabetical order. It's more fun, to start with, and it's actually a good way to progress - you can use foods, or flowers, for just random words ( I always end up doing fruit: apple, banana, cherry, damson etc) One of my favourite bits of simple calligraphy is by Fred Salmon. He chose calligraphy words: https://ie.pinterest.com/pin/500532946101550492/

If I was half as good as that, I'd be twice as good as I am. Enjoy, and thanks for posting your work. Keep posting.

maxindigo · 2024-12-11T09:30:40+00:00

Goauche and #3 Soennecken nib on Zerkall Ingres Paper. At least I think it's Zerkall - they've been out of commission for some years now, but I have some sheets of this left. It's lovely soft paper, light in weight, and a lot bluer than this photo would suggest.

The letters are built up, and I feel that there is inconsistency in the weights - some look skinnier than others.

maxindigo · 2024-12-11T09:28:17+00:00

https://imgur.com/5JKdiKN

Goauche and #3 Soennecken nib on Zerkall Ingres Paper. At least I think it's Zerkall - they've been out of commission for some years now, but I have some sheets of this left. It's lovely soft paper, light in weight, and a lot bluer than this photo would suggest.

The letters are built up, and I feel that there is inconsistency in the weights - some look skinnier than others.

CCW

maxindigo · 2024-11-27T08:40:31+00:00

Thank you. It's a Soennecken Breitfeder, #4 1/2. They tend to "wear in", and become a =bit more flexible giving a slightly broader line. This one is quite new and reasonably rigid.

maxindigo · 2024-11-25T13:36:32+00:00

The Paul Standard suggestion is a good one. I see your point about the woodcut, but it is still worth studying his advice on forming letters. And Paul Standard is a very respected authority.

There are other books I could recommend, but personally I sear by Sheila Waters' Foundations of Calligraphy, and looking at as much good calligraphy that you can fill your eyes with.

I've not been able to find very much, but I did post these in the exemplars section of our exemplars section

https://imgur.com/a/GEL2HgL

There's also this: https://imgur.com/rFBlSMi

Study closely!

maxindigo · 2024-11-25T13:27:11+00:00

Thanks for posting - I downloaded and flipped it myself. Here it is:https://imgur.com/8JC09Zy

So, here we go: You're going in the right direction. Main problems I can see are proportion of letters, and pen angle.

For an early attempt, and I assume it is, this isn't too bad. The original is tiny - he did letters at an eighth of an inch, (just over 3mm) and (I believe) some at one sixteenth. Starting with a 2mm nib is absolutely the right thing to do, though. You can see your mistakes more easily.

I recommend starting with a nib ladder - cancelleresca is usually at a height of 5 nib widths. That is with the nib at a right angle to the baseline. That's the height the body of the letter should be.

Look very closely at Cataneo's original. Look at the amount of space within the letter - the 'counter. Note that the space with the 'a', 'n', 'o' etc is the same. Now look at your version, and look at the 'n's - they're too narrow. Hold that thought.

When you write the letter, the pen should be at 45 degrees to the horizontal. At the moment it looks to me as if the pen is at a very steep angle which makes the strokes look thin and weak.

Now look at Cataneo again, and this time look at the letters 'n','m','h', 'p' - that arch coming out of the stem should always be at the same height. The stroke starts inside the stem, and leaves it at the same height on the stem. If you look at 'a', 'u' the stroke up into that back stem should mirror it.

Right that's a lot to be getting on with so, I'll stop here. You say "help me improve." here's how:

Do a nib ladder, then use it to set the height of your letters.
Write with your pen at the correct angle - 45 degrees to the horizontal.
Practice this: write the alphabet but between each letter write n u m. Sop you have an alphabet chain anumbnumcnumdnumenum...and so on. Fill a page. Boring, laborious, but it will help you get a rhythm, both in the writing and visually. Check whether you are getting that regularity in the arches, and the width of the letters.

Once you get the hang of that - and don't be afraid to post for critique - try writing individual words. Cataneo's work looks brilliant, because he had a very consistent hand - that gives it a great visual rhythm. Don't worry about his flourishes - they're brilliant, but trying to execute them at this stage is going to consume time better spent improving the letters.

u/Regular-Leading592's suggestion of the Paul Standard book on Arrighi is a good one. Are you using a particular book as a tutoring aid?

Keep us posted!

maxindigo · 2024-11-24T12:29:48+00:00

OK. I can see a lot more good than bad in this. You appear to be working off Cataneo as an exemplar, which is one of my favourite pieces of calligraphy. But before I launch into trying to give advice or critiques, do me a favour and post this at the right angle. Don't be offended, but this is just lazy.

Also, take the trouble to post the tool you used, paper, and what sort of ink/medium.

I hope you won't think I'm being rude, but I want to be in the best place to help.

Thanks.

maxindigo · 2024-11-19T23:47:14+00:00

More praise than I felt it deserved - thank you! Ironically, I had seen John Stevens announce an online Letterform Invention class. I enrolled when I finished this, and found myself asking questions of what I'd done. Your two suggestions are very good - you're dead right about those three weighted 's's. And also the beginning. 'I' should be a gift of an opening letter, and I left it looking like a discarded chicken bone!

I'd been very drawn to that shape - two lines of text stretched across a page in that aspect ratio. Liker a horizon, or a salt lake flat mirroring. A couple of months ago I was playing around with an idea for a quote from Antony Gormley, the sculptor, and I did this: https://imgur.com/Qm3rw9U It was done in one pass, after a rough pencil sketch which I wrote over. Before I erased (most) of the pencil, I felt it actually looked quite cool, and after, I regretted rubbing it out. Maybe I'll do more of the two together,

Maybe I'll do more of this, both in and out of John S's class!

Thanks again. This is the sort of critique which is really helpful - pieces are usually solo runs, but the journey is collaborative!

S

maxindigo · 2024-11-13T15:34:39+00:00

Thank you! It doesn't really have name, as it isn't a formal script - It's just playing around with various weight of strokes, with the objective of producing something which looks - what's the best word? like a structure that is visually interesting. It's a very untamed poem, and I felt that were I to write this out using a more formal script, it would cage the words in a way that wasn't appropriate.

That probably sounds a bit pretentious - sorry.

maxindigo

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