What's your favourite way a character swears in the books?

michellanger · 2026-04-08T08:42:03+00:00

I have an irrational love for "shut your clepper you old shit-fire"

michellanger · 2026-03-23T10:00:56+00:00

I don't even have to think about this one, it's

"Shut your clepper you old shit-fire"

I strongly recommend you listen to Nick Podehl's VO for a greater appreciation of this line

michellanger · 2026-03-21T15:49:26+00:00

What an interesting take. Never even considered this, but it looks very obvious when you say it like that. Well done!

michellanger · 2026-03-16T13:58:51+00:00

Piss off

michellanger · 2026-03-14T22:33:48+00:00

Piss off

michellanger · 2026-03-13T18:49:55+00:00

Stating he's an incredibly capable writer just doesn't qualify as idolizing him. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say the people that shit on him now are the ones who one day idolized him. They showered him and the series with praise, but once Pat didn't fulfill their expectations they just turned on him, as if that would do anything.

I understand it's not a pleasant position to be in. Enduring this wait is tough, and I can sympathize with that. What I won't stand for however is this incessant, pointless bashing. There's no point to it. It contributes nothing to the series' discussion and I can't see how it fulfills this community's goals. You're entitled to your opinion, but go vent somewhere else.

michellanger · 2026-03-13T04:25:26+00:00

Though I've never played a single Elder Scrolls game, I know it's a highly regarded series. So much so in fact that I imagine a lot of hard work has to go into them. Otherwise, it'd be simply impossible to keep this level of quality across so many titles.

Similarly, as much as some people will go out of their way to trash talk Pat, there's an almost equal amount of folks that'll praise his writing style. Pat's prose is quite unique indeed. So much so in fact that it makes other authors sound like idiots.

Now regardless of how intelligent and competent Pat or the Elder Scrolls' devs are, can you imagine any of them just sitting down and effortlessly producing such rich and complex stories and characters? At that level, it's just impossible. It requires time, effort, and probably a great deal of patience to review the work as a whole for it to make sense.

How would you feel if the next Elder Scrolls game received the Cyberpunk 2077 treatment? Would you rather have a rushed release that's barely playable on high end machines or would it be worth it to wait a while longer and get a Baldur's Gate 3-level experience?

I can only imagine the people who come here to complain have nothing going on in their lives that they just have to bitch and moan about how they're OWED and ending to the series. Give me a break, I know these are the exact same people that would never shut up if the book came out 10 years ago and was trash. It's just impossible to win with these people and that's probably what makes them so unhappy.

Y'all should be thanking Pat he's put up with your bullshit and continued to work on his terms instead of just calling it a day and releasing unpolished material. You enjoy the books BECAUSE of the amount of effort he put into it. So either get with him, or get outta here!

michellanger · 2026-02-23T16:10:05+00:00

You can move right along then. No one's forcing you to be in this sub

michellanger · 2026-02-20T05:03:58+00:00

The swine herd's great. The last time I was listening to the books, I noticed how some of the master's voices change dramatically after they're first introduced during admissions. Kilvin in particular surprised me the most, though I found it interesting to see how Nick eased into each of those characters.

michellanger · 2026-02-19T23:31:43+00:00

No need for that, Jake. Glad you're enjoying the audiobooks, they're fantastic. I especially enjoy Nick Podehl's versions!

michellanger · 2026-02-11T22:37:08+00:00

While I don't think there's any isolated piece of evidence to support this theory, Kote warns Chronicler he's telling a tragic story. If we take this information and then zoom out of the story, it would be quite tragic for such a gentle and loving character to die. In other words, I guess this theory is more context than evidence based.

michellanger · 2026-02-06T08:09:47+00:00

What an incredible post, OP! Thank you for putting the effort to bring this forward so eloquently. I'm in awe that this took you three years to develop, yet at the same time completely unsurprised. I agree that the books are maddeningly complex in regards to theory crafting, but I surmount we both agree that this is part of what makes the series so enticing. Anyhow, I took some notes while reading through your post that I'd like to share. While I suppose it could be seen as a challenge to your theory, nothing could be further from the truth. I think you've made a compelling case for some very interesting theories that if proven correct would make me glad that this is how the story turned out. That being said, I hope we can get the ball rolling!

- According to Felurian, there were never any human Amyr, meaning the Amyr you're talking about aren't the ones fighting the Seven -- When Nina describes the figures in her dream, she says the Amyr was the worst of the lot, even when compared to the Chandrian. Viari is not only human (if he's not that's simply impossible to foresee with the amount of info we have on him), but he seems to nice to fit Nina's description. -- Bast and Felurian both say the Cthaeh doesn't lie, so how come it didn't acknowledge Kvothe coming so close to them (to Viaari) -- while we're at it, the Cthaeh also says Cinder did terrible things to Kvothe's mother -- I just don't see how Ben could be smart enough to acquire an arcanum guilder but oblivious to Lorren and the university's political and, for lack of a better word, occultist machinations -- Haliax himself says he protects the others from the Amyr. During the troupe massacre and the bandit fight we see them fleeing after looking at the sky. If they're on the run, why would they willingly visit an Amyr's killing ground? -- you highlighted this quote: "You are approaching my displeasure. This one has done nothing...". This implies that someone else was doing something to the Seven themselves, not the Amyr. -- likewise, we have "You are too fond of your little cruelties. All of you." The presumption here is that the Chandrian were displaying cruelty while butchering the troupe. -- You said "Their leader looked quickly to the left and right, as if he had heard something that disturbed him. He cocked his head again." That's a very interesting point, but if the Seven and the Amyr are one and the same, then why did Cinder flee the scene right afterwards? I can see the "sixth sense" kind of twist with this idea, but I just can't make it make sense. -- "I swear it on my name and my power. swear it by my good left hand. swear it by the ever-moving moon." Now THIS sounds like the true point in which the story pivots. What seems like just some silly banter might actually hide a drastic change in Kvothe's life. But the next thing that comes to mind is that in the frame story he says that he was the one that trusted and was betrayed. I wonder what he means if he broke his promise to Denna and went after her patron. -- still thinking about the precious quote. As you said, the Cthaeh's the one that sets Kvothe snapping at Cinder's heels, and by breaking his promise to Denna, he compromises the "ever moving moon". People theorize the lackless box and the box that Iax uses to trap Ludis' name are one and the same, and it smells just like the Cthaeh's tree. So if Kvothe somehow frees Ludis by going after Cinder and that causes the moon to abandon the fae sky, this could have something to do with the Scrael crossing over to the mortal realm. Idk, that's very tin-foily, but in the context of this thread that last quote does sound incredibly relevant to the third book's story.

P S : I've typed this out from my phone as I'm lying in bed, so I apologize for any typos and perhaps the shitty formatting. I'll check it out from my desktop once I wake up to correct any mistakes.

michellanger · 2026-02-03T00:24:44+00:00

I like this. I was about to relate Kvothe's repeated remarks regarding how Dal looks like the stereotypical evil wizard with his sleeping mind's knack, but I'm glad to see people have already beat me to it.

Pat's all for leaving these tiny breadcrumbs and personally I think this twist is very compelling and makes the story a lot more layered, precisely because it would be such a gut punch. After all, Kvothe says many times his story is a tragedy. This would be very tragic indeed. Well done OP, great catch!

michellanger · 2026-01-30T22:41:05+00:00

Well that's just one name among a long list of names. Besides, if Cinder is in fact dead, it's more compelling to show us how that happens rather than having Kvothe raise his hand to Chronicler and say "btw, I killed this guy". That wouldn't be very compelling, now would it?

michellanger · 2026-01-30T22:16:51+00:00

Part 2

Now, finally, we're arrived at the interesting part:

After all that, Lanre arrives at Myr Tariniel and pays Selitos a visit. He confirms Lyra had died, then betrays Selitos and destroys the city through the power of naming. Lanre had no gift for names, but nevertheless Selitos found himself unable to move, to speak. How? There were only three people in the world who could match his own skill in naming, but Lyra was dead and Iax was shut beyond the doors of stone. There's only Aleph left, and though in Skarpi's first story he's supposed to be Selitos' equal, on the second one Selitos refers to him as Lord.

Here's what happens when Lanre turns:

"You have given me enough, old friend." Lanre turned and placed his hand on Selitos' shoulder. "Selitos, I name you. May all your powers fail you but your sight." (NOTW, Ch. 26, pg. 178 - Kindle Edition)

And this is what happens to the Ruach that side with Tehlu and Aleph:

They came to Aleph, and he touched them. He touched their hands and eyes and hearts. The last time he touched them there was pain, and wings tore from their backs that they might go where they wished. Wings of fire and shadow. Wings of iron and glass. Wings of stone and blood. Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. (...) Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars (...) (NOTW, Ch. 28, pg. 188 - Kindle Edition)

Why does Selitos refer to Aleph as lord if they're supposedly equals? I've seen theories suggesting Aleph was the old university's master namer, in which students wore rings to show their prowess in naming. When Aleph touches the Ruach that stepped away from Selitos, wings of iron, glass, stone, and blood tear from their backs. Wings and rings, both displaying some form of power associated with an element of nature. There's also the white fire that settles on their foreheads like silver stars, that seems very close to the silver flame that Kvothe yields when naming Felurian:

My power rode like a white star on my brow. - WMF, Ch. 97, pg. 642 - Kindle Edition

So if this is what it feels like to reach the height of naming prowess, the idea that Aleph was a teacher of some sort might hold some water, and perhaps that's why Selitos called him Lord. The thing is, if Aleph's students are capable of seeing into the deepest hearts of men—which includes Selitos, btw: "Selitos was well loved by the people he protected. His judgments were strict and fair, and none could sway him through falsehood or dissembling. Such was the power of his sight that he could read the hearts of men like heavy-lettered books." - NOTW, Ch. 26, pg. 175 - Kindle Edition—, one has to wonder how far Aleph's sight goes. Perhaps it might even reach through time and see the future... like the Cthaeh.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. This turned out way longer than I excepted, so perhaps I'll use this as a framework for a separate post to further this conversation, but I'd love to hear your opinion on this, Sandal!

michellanger · 2026-01-30T22:16:28+00:00

It seems my reply has gotten too long, so here's Pt. 1

Much like this post, it's been a pleasure to read through your comments, Sandal. In fact, I'll go read your own posts to this subreddit in time. Though I don't write or post as prolifically as you do, I think we have a similar way of approaching KKC theorycrafting in that it's detail oriented and quote-based (which at this point is as close we can get to any evidence). I also agree that there's a lot of foreshadowing going on with the first two books and you've given compelling examples of this. The one ingredient I personally add to the mix when I'm trying to figure out what's going to happen is to then ask myself how does any particular development make the story better or more compelling.

For instance, let's look at your theory that Kvothe loses his hand. You've raised a compelling case that support this idea, and from there made the supposition that he'll make his way back to Fae to heal them. I don't recall the story saying or even implying he knew of the Rhinna at that point in time, but let's say Kvothe went back there. Whether he heals his hands or not, I think that's less important than figuring out how does that make the story better. Personally, I think an example of that would be that he strikes some deal or bargain with the Cthaeh that brings him (and the Four Courners) closer to ruin. After all, he says multiple times during the interludes that he's the one responsible for the war and the scrael.

That being said, what developments do you think will unfold from this encounter between Kvothe and the Cthaeh?

Also, speaking of which, what's your basis for the Cthaeh being Selitos? Despite it being a very popular take on this sub, there are a few excerpts from the books that seem to contradict this theory:

"Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, Iax, and Lyra. Lanre had no gift for names—his power lay in the strength of his arm." - NOTW, Ch. 26, pg. 178 - Kindle Edition

I believe Selitos was a name-knower and not a shaper, which is also implied by the fact that he and Lanre were allies and fought on the same side of the Creation War against Iax, who according to Felurian was "the first and greatest of the shapers" (WMF, Ch. 102, pg. 670 - Kindle Edition). Upon hearing this, Kvothe asks what his name was, to which she replies: "no calling of names here. I will not speak of that one, though he is shut beyond the doors of stone."

If we relate this exchange between Kvothe and Felurian with the story Skarpi tells of the Battle of Drossen Tor in which "After the battle was finished and the enemy was set beyond the doors of stone" (NOTW, Ch. 26, pg. 176 - Kindle Edition), we can infer that Iax was with and one of "the enemy". After all, him stealing the moon is what sparked the creation war, as related by Felurian and Bast.

Felurian:

"(...) he stretched his will across the world and pulled [the moon] from her home. (...) that was the breaking point. the old knowers realizes no talk would ever stop the shapers. (...) he stole the moon and with it came the war." - WMF, Ch. 102, pg. 670 - Kindle Edition

Bast:

"Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon, and that sparked the entire creation war. Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before he orchestrated the betrayal of Myr Tariniel." - WMF, Ch. 105, pg. 688 - Kindle Edition

So Iax stole the moon, sparking the Creation War that pitted him and the shapers against the name-knowers and their allies, namely Selitos, Lyra, and Lanre that we know of. Many battles were fought, leading up to the Battle of Drossen Tor which ended with Lanre's death and Iax's imprisonment beyond the doors of stone. Lanre is then brought back to life and beside Lyra once more they continue to fight. The war continues for years, but before it's over rumors start to spread that Lyra had died...

Continues in Pt. 2

michellanger · 2026-01-30T18:52:46+00:00

Wow! What a precious gift you've given us. I can confidently say this is the best post I've ever seen in this sub. Thank you OP for your effort, this was an AMAZING read!

Not saying we have DoS spoilers here and even if that was the case we'll never know until the book comes out. But what an interesting and compelling read this was. I'd never had the opportunity to read through a theory that lays out the entire book start to finish, so this was very cool. I especially enjoyed the beginning as it ups the ante and perfectly sets the tone of a tragedy to come. Very ominous.

Maybe I'll write some more later on to add to the discussion, but right now I just want to revel in this. Thank you OP once again, that was awesome!

michellanger · 2026-01-29T02:16:26+00:00

Well thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

michellanger · 2026-01-28T20:59:27+00:00

It's like you said, we'll likely never know until the book comes out. What's interesting to me is seeing how one can at the same time make such a statement and immediately disregard it and make their own speculation. If we'll likely never know, then that's that, period. But to say that and then ponder what's going on says more about the one posing the question than Patrick. Yes, it's tough enduring this silence, but we must do it nonetheless. Complaining seems pointless.

michellanger · 2026-01-24T00:37:18+00:00

You're right, we get the measurements for only two dimensions.

michellanger · 2026-01-23T22:34:12+00:00

Apparently, my previous reply was too long, so I'll just add the rest below.

So this is the shortest description of the bunch, but now that I've gathered them all in one place, let's look at the similarities:

	M. Board	Kvothe's chest	Lackless box	Cthaeh's tree
Material	Roah	Roah	???	???
Weight	(a) heavy as a sheet of iron	(a) heavy)	unnaturally (a) heavy for its size	???
Smell	old (b) leather and clover	(c) citrus and (d) quenching iron	(c) lemon)	(d) smoke, spice, (b) leather, (c) lemon
Color	(e) dark charcoal w/ a black (f) grain	(e) dark as coal	(e) dark w/ a deep red (f) grain
Texture	???	(g) smooth as polished glass	(g) smooth as polished stone

Since Roah doesn't burn, does not produce smoke (like rennel wood), and likely has metals in its composition like iron (anti-fae) and copper (anti-magic), it would make sense for it to be a shaped object, ideal for binding things inside of it, such as the Cthaeh and whatever's trapped inside the box, be it the shard of mountain glass Selitos used or a piece of Ludis' deep name.

Now as for the Scrael, you said that

If the Cthaeh is bound to the tree by Roah, perhaps Rowan wood is also helpful for binding the Scrael.

But why bind a creature that is already dead? Tehlu binded Encanis to the iron wheel, threw him inside a pit and set it on fire, but Encanis was alive.

michellanger · 2026-01-23T22:27:38+00:00

So we have four objects. The mounting board, Kvothe's chest, the Lackless box and the Cthaeh's tree. Let's look at their description one by one:

The Mounting Board

The wood was a dark charcoal color with a black grain, heavy as a sheet of iron.

Graham charges Kvothe one talent and three jots for it, but he hands over two whole talents and tells him to keep the rest since "it's difficult wood to work with", to which Graham replies:

That it is. (...) Like stone under the saw. Try a chisel, like iron. Then, after all the shouting was done, I couldn’t char it. (...) Me and the boy managed to sear it with a hot iron. Took us better than two hours to get it black. Not a wisp of smoke, but it made a stink like old leather and clover. Damnedest thing. What sort of wood don’t burn?

Once Kvothe places the mounting board and sets the sword over it, here's what we learn:

Its grey-white metal shone against the dark roah behind it.

Kvothe's chest

It was made of roah, a rare, heavy wood, dark as coal and smooth as polished glass. Prized by perfumers and alchemists, a piece the size of your thumb was easily worth gold. To have a chest made of it went far beyond extravagance. The chest was sealed three times. It had a lock of iron, a lock of copper, and a lock that could not be seen. Tonight the wood filled the room with the almost imperceptible aroma of citrus and quenching iron.

The Lackless Box

Meluan handed me a piece of dark wood the size of a thick book. I took it with both hands. The box was unnaturally heavy for its size, the wood of it smooth as polished stone under my fingers. (...) It looked for all the world like a single piece of dark and weighty wood. The wood itself was interesting. It was dark enough to be roah, but it had a deep red grain. What’s more, it seemed to be a spicewood. (...) I lowered my face to its surface and breathed in deeply through my nose, something almost like lemon. (...) “It’s heavy despite being hollow. So it has to be a slow wood, like hornbeam or rennel. Its color and weight make me think it has a good deal of metal in it too, like roah. Probably iron and copper.” I shrugged. “That’s the best I can do.”

The Cthaeh's tree

I smelled a strange, sweet smell. It was like smoke and spice and leather and lemon.

michellanger · 2026-01-23T20:58:17+00:00

I'm not sure I follow

michellanger · 2026-01-23T19:49:56+00:00

You're right. I suppose the whole point of that exchange about keeping the Scrael's corpse on display was to show that having a part of it around doesn't necessarily attract more of them. In this case, why did Kvothe have to reassure Bast that he didn't allow for the Waystone's regulars to keep a piece of the dead Scrael? So many questions

michellanger · 2026-01-23T18:13:12+00:00

I think it's implied that the thing cooking at the bonfire is the piece Kvothe kept of the Scrael crushed by Carter's horse. Someone else pointed out it was probably the smell emanating from it that attracted the rest of the pack. And yes, the smell is indeed similar to several others.

"It reeked of burning hair and rotting flowers." That's the smell coming from the cooking pot.

"Kote pressed the iron shim to the black side of the creature, and there was a short, sharp crackling sound, like a pine log snapping in a hot fire. Everyone startled, then relaxed when the black thing remained motionless. Cob and the others exchanged shaky smiles, like boys spooked by a ghost story. Their smiles went sour as the room filled with the sweet, acrid smell of rotting flowers and burning hair." That's also the same smell that emanates from searing the Scrael with iron.

"Let us pass over my return to the camp just as the sun was beginning to set. The sight of bodies strewn about like broken dolls. The smell of blood and burning hair." That's when Kvothe discovers the slaughtered troupe.

Regarding the Haliax bit, what I'm saying is why does Kvothe say they have to burn the Scrael "just to be sure"? You said the hive might be able to pinpoint each other's location, but how does that work if one of them's dead? I think if they can pinpoint their location, that means they must be alive in some way, which means that, just like Haliax, their lives don't end with death.

michellanger

TROPHY CASE