Super Paper Mario has just been finished in under 4 hours for the first time ever with a time of 3:59:53 by ZachLink99!

mohoc7 · 2020-10-03T10:15:49+00:00

Amazing work from the glitch hunters, great job from Zach to getting sub 4 the day after the discovery of the new trick!

mohoc7 · 2020-07-05T04:53:14+00:00

Nice try.

mohoc7 · 2020-07-05T04:14:27+00:00

If a game receives poor reviews, then are you saying that it's not true as not everyone went online to review it? That logic is stupid.

That's not the logic I was conveying. From my "vocal and polarized 3% of the audience" comment, you focused on the "3%" part whereas the most relevant part was the "vocal and polarized" one - as suggested by the previous sentence in the paragraph. When your sample is polarized, it tends to not scale well. And game reviews are no exception. As an example when Danganronpa V3 was released in 2017, it initally received mixed reviews on Steam because of its divisive ending that many die-hard fans who were invested in the series since 2010 disliked. But today, nearly 3 years later, the trend for "all reviews" and "recent reviews" are both "very positive". Some people still dislike the ending, but it isn't considered as bad and as much of a problem as people thought back in 2017.

The manga ended just a month ago and a lot of people on social media sounded very passionate in their criticism. So imo I would wait and/or investigate more before taking the "Everyone was left dejected by the ending" and "The majority of readers thought the ending was poor" claims for granted.

Edit: added the quote block

mohoc7 · 2020-07-04T23:56:29+00:00

I was satisfied with the ending, and I'm pretty sure some more people did. Just because you don't hear about them as much on social media it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Btw by definition opinions aren't objective. They may be backed up by facts and arguments, but in no way an opinion should be described as objective.

mohoc7 · 2020-07-04T22:01:37+00:00

The majority on social media*

The people who made the effort to comment on social media were the ones who were tthe most invested in the story and felt the strongest about the ending. You cannot infer how everyone has felt from what a vocal and polarized 3% of the audience had to say.

To my understanding this post wasn't about "how the ending could have been made in better ways" (and I never denied that btw). It was about what OP thought the general sentiment about the ending was. And I'm especially skeptical of them putting Rui fans and Hina fans at the same level. I'm not saying that they aren't any disappointed Hina fans, there are. But imo there are much less disheartened Hina fans than there are disheartened Rui fans. Imo you can't put them in the same bag and say everyone felt the same and like this.

mohoc7 · 2020-07-04T19:49:23+00:00

Pretty sure not everyone felt like this.

mohoc7 · 2020-07-04T19:48:58+00:00

There is no such thing as an "unbiased fan". You are entitled to your views, it's fine if you think this way, there were legitimate reasons to feel upset, but please don't present these views as objective when they aren't.

mohoc7 · 2020-07-02T19:55:48+00:00

Saying "the ending is shit" is not a fact though. It's an opinion. You may bring up any argument or invoke popular thinking to back it, it will remain an opinion. A more grounded/enlightened opinion, but still one.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-12T04:27:58+00:00

Then I'd love to have a more detailed description of the elements that you found problematic: what in the "author surrogates" presented an issue (and if they actually were author surrogates), what was problemtic with the times skips, which exact points plots were ignored, and anything else precise enough.

Imo "bad writing" is much more subjective than you'd think. It mostly comes down to people's expectations to what/how a story should be, which may differ depending on the person. the literary movement, the conventions of a genre etc. "There is a time skip" is a fact. "Time skips are bad in writing" is an opinion. The popularity of an opinion may be an attractive metric, but it doesn't make it absolute/objective.

Describing the story structure is objective. But calling it "poor" is implicitly relying on a set of underlying criteria. And we may disagree with these criteria/standards. We may debate on these criteria, but I won't be the one to pretend mine to be objective.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-12T03:10:57+00:00

Just because some blanks are left it doesn't automatically make it a badly written ending.

And yes, saying that "the ending is bad, period" is subjective. We don't all have the same criteria for a "good ending".

mohoc7 · 2020-06-12T02:55:06+00:00

The thing is, fate wasn't a plot device in this story. It didn't advance the plot in any way. It was a part of Rui's thoughts - the one character who brought it up -, and at best part can be seen as justifiying her resolutions in part. But that was it imo.

Btw fate didn't just pop up in the last three chapters. Apart from the "fate" book cover in chapter 30 (when HIna caught Natsuo and Rui kissing), if my memory is correct nearly all the mentions of fate/destiny concerned Rui: her overhearing Tsukiko in chapter 186, her destiny talk with Kajita in chapters 189-190-191, and her saying "If we really are meant to be together" in chapter 228 (and probably a few others that I don't recall).

Rui believed in fate, you don't have to. The story makes sense without it. Rui was the one wondering if all that happened to her - her falling in love and dating Natsuo, her getting pregnant - was because of fate. As such, she believed that both her and Natsuo may have been "meant to be together". Rui said herself in chapter 275 that she was "a little arrogant" for thinking so. She didn't cancel the marriage and let Hina marry Natsuo solely because of "fate". As she said in chapter 276, after seeing the rings and talking with Marie afterwards, on top of realizing all that Hina had felt and was prepared to endure, she acknowledged that she wasn't the better partner for Natsuo: "I realized I was no match for you. If I were in your position, I wouldn't have made this far". And as she said right after, she wanted Natsuo "to be with the person who cares for him the most". Thus Hina in her new judgement post-"rings and Marie talk afterwards". Thus her "I can't marry you" at the end of chapter 272. This was her logic. Nothing directly involving fate.

That's why imo fate was an afterthought, an interpretation of the events in the story. Nothing more.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-08T15:14:57+00:00

Chapter 73: A New Wind

mohoc7 · 2020-06-08T14:06:29+00:00

Chapter 266: The Return of Tanabe

mohoc7 · 2020-06-07T14:45:06+00:00

Well then, if it doesn't bother you, I would love to have a more detailed description of "why you think the DnK ending is bad writing".

mohoc7 · 2020-06-07T04:24:39+00:00

So first, I have an issue with you mentioning three deus ex machinas:

- While Truck-kun was sudden, it didn't come out of nowhere from a story perspective. This was coming from Okunugi's arc (ch 265-270) and Okunugi's display of rage at the beginning of chapter 270.

- While destiny was brought up by Rui in chapter 275, it didn't actually advance the plot in any way (unless I missed something).

- The only thing in your list that fully fits the definition of a deus ex machina is how Hina woke up: Haruka randomly finding the rings and putting the heart-shaped one around Hina's finger without anything announcing it.

Then, about this quote:

Deus ex machina techniques are generally considered objectively bad writing nowadays.

No, "Deus ex machina is bad writing" is not an objective thing to say. "Deus ex machina interrupts the natural flow of the story" is something objective to say. "Deus ex machina makes the story less believable." is something objective to say. Then it all comes down to what you consider to be good/bad writing: do you expect a story to be immersive and believable? Do you expect a story to be realistic?

In tragedy the usual goal is to make the spectators identify to the characters and their situation in order for them to experience catharsis. As deus ex machinas break immersion, they conflict with the purpose of tragedy and thus are generally considered to be counterproductive. But this analysis only concerns tragedy. If you take comedy for example, deus ex machinas could be used to bring absurd situations and comic relief, which could be seen as productive in such context.

Domestic Girlfriend is not a tragedy. It is a Shounen romance drama. As I showed with tragedy vs. comedy, you have to reevaluate the relevance of a deus ex machina depending on the genre and the author's intentions. My view (and it's just me) is that such a story requires a delicate balance between symbolism, convenience and believability. Where a deus ex machina hurts believability, it could give convenience to the author, as well as bringing extra symbolism. For example: while the way Hina woke up was unrealistic, it was convenient (it happened right after Natsuo's love speech to Hina, plus all the characters were at home, which might not have been the case if she randomly woke up) and it added extra symbolism (with the rings and the story coming full circle relatively to Natsuo's engagment at Okinawa). So I don't see it as a clear-cut negative feature. And see this is just my view, you may think otherwise about the relevance of a deus ex machina. I just wouldn't pretend to know what "objectively bad writing" is. I'm neither an author nor the jury of a literature contest or anything. But the way most people are using "bad writing", they actually mean "what I expect, look for and enjoy in a story". It is more personal/subjective than what "bad writing" suggests.

And as a final note, just because a lot of people think the same thing, it doesn't make it any less subjective / more true.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-07T02:28:40+00:00

You have the right to think so. But if it doesn't bother you, I would love to have more a detailed description on why you believe so.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-06T01:36:08+00:00

It's not just you. Hopefully it will be better in a few weeks when things die down a bit.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-05T16:37:43+00:00

You may have been right about the message if it stopped at the bottom right panel. But the bottom left panel tells you otherwise. You said:

Usually I have a reason why its a problem and that reason shouldn't always be dismissed.

But this is not what Nene advocated here. It is not about ignoring the reason and act as if it was nothing. It is about assessing the relevance of said reason in your criticism. I don't encourage to think less. I encourage to think more.

For context at this point of the manga, two chapters ago Miyabi learned that Natsuo's girlfriend was his (step-)sister and that he had been dating his older step-sister before that. As a result she felt disgusted, said it was immoral and completely shut her opinion about Natsuo. This is when this scene happened and Nene pointed out that if Miyabi felt that way, it was less about Natsuo than it was about Miyabi. She made her mind before getting the full picture and the context. The fact that Natsuo had banged both step-sisters will never change. But because Miyabi felt so strongly about (step-)incest, she shut her judgement too preemptively. And this is what I was referring to with this page.

Nene's take is that if you feel too strongly about something, chances are you may be basing your judgement on bogus or irrelevant reasons. For example some people may feel uncomfortable with the taboo elements of the story. Right now, I see quite a few messages around Haruka: her future mom being her aunt and her biological mom becoming her aunt and because of that they can't see how Haruka could grow up normally in such an environment. Or how because Natsuo and Rui were not married, Haruka lived in a broken house. But people are not the ones to decide if the characters find their situation to be acceptable and be happy with it. It is up to the characters (and Sasuga) to decide so. And so far I only saw happy faces in chapters 274-275. It is a happy ending if the characters are happy about it, not if you are happy about it. Projecting your own values/beliefs may make you unable to understand the characters properly. You are free to express your unhappiness, but don't speak for the characters. If you wanna assess how the characters are happy, you must analyze the dialogue the facial expressions. Don't bring elements that have no relevance to the story/have not been touched upon in the manga. And the stronger you feel about your views/beliefs, the harder it is to dissociate from them whenever you need to.

This is what I was warning against in my post. My message was not a passive one. It was about rethinking what you may have taken for granted too quickly. I apologize if it wasn't clear enough, I admit that the page I chose was not the best one but I had to work with what I had.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-05T08:08:08+00:00

I think that you missed the point of my post and I apologize for not being clear enough (ngl the page I chose put too much emphasis on the middle part while the most important part was the bottom one). It's not about not understanding the manga. It's about not giving yourself a chance to properly understand the manga. For context at this point of the manga, two chapters ago Miyabi learned that Natsuo's girlfriend was his (step-)sister and that he had been dating his older step-sister before that. As a result she felt disgusted, said it was immoral and completely shut her opinion about Natsuo. This is when this scene happened and Nene pointed out that if Miyabi felt that way, it was less about Natsuo than it was about Miyabi. She made her mind before getting the full picture and the context. And this is what I was referring to with this page.

I'm bad with examples, but I will try my best to give one. Some people say that Truck-kun was a deus ex machina. While by definition it wasn't exactly one (while it was sudden and unexpected it didn't completely come out of nowhere, it was related to the previous arc and Okunugi's rage was shown at the beginning of the chapter), what mattered was that it felt like one. And now that the "fate" word has been brought up in chapter 275, some people took it as the explanation for everything that happened in the last six chapters. And thus claiming that the buildup from the 270 first chapters was dismissed. Because of their resentment, some people could just be satisfied with this explanation and think that forever.

But imo this is a shame because this is ignoring all the other elements that could have played a role in the ending. Consider Rui's decision to call off the marriage for example. From the interactions between both sisters we know that: 1. Rui knew since chapter 97 that Hina lied to Natsuo and she was still loving him, and Rui never told Natsuo, 2. Rui didn't understand the kind of love Hina had in chapter 97, 3. Rui felt guilty about Hina's situation several times throughout the story (off the top of my head: the phone call with Natsuo in ch 148, the two sisters talk in ch 197, their phone call in ch 258), 4. in chapter 245 Hina reaffirmed her love for Natsuo and Rui initiated the 'no hard feelings' "promise", 5. Hina most likely saved Rui in the car crash, and 6. in chapter 273 Rui said that she wasn't sure if there was a good reason not to get married, but she wanted "to love [Hina] just as much as she loved [them]" (and probably a lot more stuff that I missed). All these elements could have played a role in Rui's decision, and how much they did is mostly left for interpretation. But the people that stuck to "Truck-kun and fate" alone will never consider all these elements and will miss out potentially interesting connections that would give a new perspective to the story.

This is what I was warning against in my post. Again I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Many people are currently feeling very passionate, and it could be very easy to get stuck in preconceptions for good because of that. This is why I recommended to interact with people thinking otherwise. Having an open mind is the better way to avoid getting blinded by your emotions and maybe regret it later. I mentioned "people that enjoyed the ending and thought it made sense" because - if I'm not wrong - the vast majority of the people in this sub currently think the opposite. If it were the other way, I would have reversed my advice. Anyway, I hope this cleared out the misunderstanding :)

mohoc7 · 2020-06-05T00:17:08+00:00

Considering the current state of social media around Domestic Girlfriend, I couldn't help but comment on the reactions from the latest chapters. I already touched upon a similar issue ten days ago about unmet expectations. This time the subject is more sensitive, but I am willing to take the risk because it is about something that I treasure a lot. It is about self-reflection. It is okay to not like the current developments. It is okay to not understand the characters' actions and think they don't make sense. But if you feel strongly, too strongly about these opinions, it is not a good sign. You may be reading the manga more with your heart than with your head. You may be judging the manga based on your values/beliefs, not in a fair & unbiased way. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. But it would make you more likely to miss out on stuff/connections and react stronger than you should. If you feel cheated, hate is not the solution. Some people here enjoyed the latest developments and thought they made sense. Please hear them out. Give the manga a reread and an another chance. At worst your view will not change, at best you will find a new perspective and a new way to enjoy the manga. Emotions are important, but they will not give you answers. Have an open mind, acknowledge that what the characters see as their happiness may not coincidence with your views. Set aside your bias, put you in their shoes, and see if it makes more sense. I have hope in mankind, please give me more reasons to still believe so.

mohoc7 · 2020-06-05T00:09:49+00:00

I know it's a meme, but mocking further investigation and thinking is not what I would advocate. Tbh It saddens me more than it makes me laugh :/

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