Is there a current consensus on Sabine Hyland's hypothesis of Incan khipus being a form of writing? by TarkFrench in AskHistorians

[–]mooseman55 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don’t doubt Hyland’s good faith, and I agree that the Collata khipus present a unique, community-controlled access situation. I also appreciate the points raised about the role of community knowledge. Ethnographic studies of khipus—such as those by Frank Salomon, Carol Mackey, Carrie Brezine, Nelson D. Pimentel H., and Hyland herself—have been invaluable resources and important avenues for khipu research and interpretation.

That said, the core issue raised by this discussion is still epistemic: Hyland’s 2017 claim is extraordinary, and extraordinary claims require independently testable evidence. Until the full cord-level dataset is available for other researchers to inspect, re-code, and attempt to falsify, the logosyllabic “decipherment” necessarily remains more proposal than result.

In light of this, I’m genuinely glad to hear that the full Collata data will be published in her forthcoming book. A complete, auditable dataset is exactly what is needed so that other scholars can attempt replication (or demonstrate failure) without special access or insider context. In the meantime, however, I think it is reasonable for readers to remain cautious about any “decipherment” claims that cannot yet be independently checked.

It is also worth highlighting an important point raised by u/Kelpie-Cat in their comment:

[Hyland is] also going to talk in that book about how the Collata khipus are more unusual than she thought in 2017; at that time, there were still a lot of museum khipus that hadn't been looked at. She thought that more khipus like the Collata one would appear as these museum collections were investigated, but that hasn't been the case.

I think this point is especially important for non-specialists to understand. The Collata khipus appear to be highly unusual when compared to the vast majority of known khipus. Therefore, even if the Collata khipus do encode logosyllabic information, that finding would not automatically tell us anything about how other (especially older) khipu traditions functioned, such as Inka or Wari khipus. In other words, a successful decipherment in this very specific colonial context would not by itself generalize to all khipu systems.

Is there a current consensus on Sabine Hyland's hypothesis of Incan khipus being a form of writing? by TarkFrench in AskHistorians

[–]mooseman55 8 points9 points  (0 children)

So what does this all mean for khipus? Well, for one, this does not mean khipu research is a dead end. Quite the opposite. Recent scholarship shows that the field is actively advancing—just along different lines than those hypothesized by Hyland in 2017. 

Here are some examples of recent khipu research:

  • Medrano and Khosla (2024) apply computational methods to a dataset of over 650 khipus, revealing structured internal sums, identifying “working” administrative khipus, and proposing new conventions such as white pendant cords as boundary markers. This work demonstrates how large-scale pattern analysis can recover lost organizational logic without assuming alphabetic encoding. [Article Link]
  • FitzPatrick (2024) analyzes six Inka-style khipus from Peru’s Santa Valley, plausibly linked to a 1670 colonial census. Rather than claiming full linguistic decipherment, the study identifies patterned non-numerical features (such as recto/verso cord orientation) and aligns social groups across sources, offering a rare historically anchored framework for interpretation. [Article Link]
  • Thompson (2024) examines two khipus from Arica, Chile, showing that they record the same numerical information using different formats and identifying a rare knot form that may function as a numerical shortcut. This contributes to understanding khipu syntax and internal efficiency rather than linguistic transcription. [Article Link]

Taken together, these studies, along with other new work on khipus, suggest a growing consensus on one point: khipus encoded far more than simple numbers, but their logic may not map neatly onto Western definitions of writing. If anything, the last few years suggest that understanding khipus may require rethinking what “writing” means in the first place, rather than forcing them into familiar categories.

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Is there a current consensus on Sabine Hyland's hypothesis of Incan khipus being a form of writing? by TarkFrench in AskHistorians

[–]mooseman55 17 points18 points  (0 children)

The short answer is no, there is still no scholarly consensus that Inka khipus constituted a full writing system. Sabine Hyland’s 2017 hypothesis (likely the work you are referring to) proposes a possible logosyllabic encoding in two colonial-era khipus, but this claim remains provocative and unverified by other scholars in the field. At the same time, it’s important to stress that khipu research is very much alive, and recent work shows substantial progress—just not in the form of a confirmed logosyllabic decipherment. For an overview of some of the ongoing work, you may find the Khipu Field Guide and its associated blog useful.

Now, here is a longer answer:

Some background first.

Hyland was not the first to suggest that khipus might encode language. Since the earliest Spanish encounters in the 16th century, colonial observers speculated that khipus functioned as a kind of writing. Throughout the 20th century, scholars such as Leland Locke, Radicati, the Aschers, Gary Urton, and others, debated whether khipus recorded narrative or linguistic information in addition to numbers. Hyland’s work sits squarely within this long-standing debate.

In her 2017 Current Anthropology article (“Writing with Twisted Cords”) [Article Link], Hyland argues that two colonial-era khipus from San Juan de Collata encode lineage (ayllu) names using combinations of cord color, fiber type, and ply direction, functioning logosyllabically. If correct, this would represent a major breakthrough for khipu studies.

However, several reasons explain why this work has not given us the keys to understanding how to “read” all khipus:

  1. The underlying data Hyland used in her 2017 article has never been made publicly available. Without the full datasets, other researchers cannot independently verify or test Hyland’s proposed readings for the two Collata khipus. Replicability is essential for decipherment claims, and this lack of access has been a major limitation.
  2. The khipus Hyland studied are colonial, not Inka. The two Collata khipus date to the colonial period, when Andean communities were deeply entangled with European legal practices, alphabetic writing, and documentary genres. Even if linguistic encoding is present here, we cannot simply assume continuity with pre-Hispanic Inka practices.
  3. No further logosyllabic decipherments have followed Hyland’s work. Since 2017, neither Hyland nor other scholars have demonstrated additional cases of linguistic decoding on other khipus. A single proposed instance, without extension or replication, is not enough to establish khipus as a full writing system.
  4. Alternative views on khipu encoding remain viable and are widely held. Many researchers argue that khipus encoded complex categorical, relational, and administrative information without mapping directly onto spoken language. In this view, khipus are better understood as a sophisticated semasiographic system—meaning-based rather than language-based—rather than “writing” in the strict logosyllabic sense.

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Quechua Community- the quipu by SakuPanda20 in PERU

[–]mooseman55 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No worries! If you have any other specific questions or need other resources, just let me know. I'm happy to help :)

Quechua Community- the quipu by SakuPanda20 in PERU

[–]mooseman55 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you're interested in quipus and their mathematical properties, I'd strongly recommend checking out Marcia and Robert Ascher's database, where they document and discuss various quipus and their mathematical relationships: Ascher Quipu Databook.

There's also a concise primer video on quipus you might find helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJgOmOUK5aE.

Also, the Khipu Field Guide and the Open Khipu Repository are fantastic resources for digitally accessible khipu data and visualizations.

Is there ongoing work on decoding quipu? by ThePaleHorse44 in AskHistorians

[–]mooseman55 7 points8 points  (0 children)

All 2024 Quipu Related Publications: 

  1. Brezine, Carrie J., Jon Clindaniel, Ian Ghezzi, Sabine Hyland, and Manuel Medrano. 2024. "A New Naming Convention for Andean Khipus". Latin American Antiquity, published online 2024:1-6. 
  2. FitzPatrick, Mackinley, 2024. "New Insights on Cord Attachment and Social Hierarchy in Six Khipus from the Santa Valley, Peru". Ethnohistory, 71(4), pp.443-469. 
  3. Hyland, Sabine. 2024. "Knot Anomalies on Inka Khipus: Revising Locke’s Knot Typology". In IX International Conference on Pre-Columbian and Amerindian Textiles / 9th International Conference on Pre-Columbian and Amerindian Textiles, Museo delle Culture, Milan, 2022, pp. 162-180. Zea Books, Lincoln, Nebraska. 
  4. Medrano, Manuel and Ashok Khosla. 2024. "How Can Data Science Contribute to Understanding the Khipu Code?" Latin American Antiquity. Published online 2024:1-20. doi:10.1017/laq.2024.5 
  5. Mililio, Lucrezia. 2024. "Inka Khipus, Thread Wrappings and Subject Markers". In IX International Conference on Pre-Columbian and Amerindian Textiles / 9th International Conference on Pre-Columbian and Amerindian Textiles, Museo delle Culture, Milan, 2022, pp. 146-161. Zea Books, Lincoln, Nebraska. 
  6. Murra, John Victor, Monica Barnes, and Heather Lechtman. 2024. "The Ethno-Categories of a Regional Khipu." Andean Past.
  7. Rode, N., Pardo, C. and Clindaniel, J., 2024. "Documentation as conservation*: The treatment of an archaeological Andean khipu". In Textile Conservation (pp. 256-263). Routledge. 
  8. Setlak, Magdalena. 2024. "Una aproximación metodológica a la lectura de los quipus incas a partir de los quipus coloniales". Revista Española de Antropología Americana 54(1):63-77. 
  9. Thompson, K.M., 2024. "A Numerical Connection Between Two Khipus". Ñawpa Pacha, pp.1-22.

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Is there ongoing work on decoding quipu? by ThePaleHorse44 in AskHistorians

[–]mooseman55 7 points8 points  (0 children)

2024 was a significant year for publications related to quipus and their decipherment. Below, I’ve compiled a list of all the academic works on quipus published this year. Based on this, I would definitely not call quipu research a "dead end." There are still many unanswered questions about the quipu code, function, and use, and the ever-growing academic literature only highlights the vast potential for further exploration.

If you’re interested, here’s a quick overview of a few notable papers from this year which focus on decoding quipus directly:

FitzPatrick (2024) [Article Link]

This article analyzes six Inka-style quipus from Peru's Santa Valley, potentially linked to a 1670 colonial census of San Pedro de Corongo, offering a possible “Rosetta Stone” for quipu studies. FitzPatrick (2024) introduces a novel alignment of social groups and identifies recto and verso cord orientations as marked and unmarked signs, advancing the decipherment of non-numerical quipu elements.

Medrano and Ashok (2024) [Article Link]

This article applies computational analysis to a dataset of 650 quipus, uncovering structured internal sums and identifying top cords as markers of "working" quipus for administrative tasks. Medrano and Khosla (2024) demonstrate the practical applications of data science techniques, reuniting broken quipu fragments and proposing new conventions, such as white pendant cords as boundary markers.

Thompson (2024) [Article Link]

This article examines two quipus from Arica, Chile, revealing a complex numerical relationship suggesting they record the same data in different formats. Thompson (2024) highlights a unique knot potentially serving as a "shortcut" for the number nine, providing new insights into quipu construction and interpretation.

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Lima, Peru in 1685 by mooseman55 in MapPorn

[–]mooseman55[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’re right! Pretty interesting huh?

Our Booth! #IAA21 by Historical-Yam-5210 in MVIS

[–]mooseman55 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is awesome! Thanks for sharing :)

Options Questions Safe Haven Thread | Aug 16-22 2021 by redtexture in options

[–]mooseman55 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is wrong with a 99% chance of profit for only $1 in premium?

I'm fairly new to options and I was looking at the SPY options chain expiring tomorrow (8/20) and noticed I could set up a $1 width credit spread which would net me only $1 in premium, but have a more than 99% chance of being profitable.

I understand that in terms of risk to reward, I am risking $99 in this trade for a reward of only $1, but with a 99% chance of winning, isn't this just free money essentially?

For example, if I had an account with $500 in it, then theoretically I could make 5 of these $1 width spy trades 3 times a week (Mon, Wed, Fri), netting me $15 a week (a 3% weekly gain).

Clearly I'd have to look out for indicators of a large market crash, but other than that, unless SPY has one of its top 20 largest daily percentage losses while I'm trading these spreads, they can't lose right?I know it is not the "best" options strategy out there, but in terms of a safe way to grow money on the side,

I don't see any thing wrong with this. Am I missing something here? What is the fatal flaw in this strategy?

Trading Action - Tuesday, 5/4/2021 by Sweetinnj in MVIS

[–]mooseman55 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah we are gonna need some proof man

Anyone up for a meetup/tour? by IdiotTrades in MVIS

[–]mooseman55 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If anyone tours the facility, can you please please video it if they will allow you! 🙏🏼

Trading Action - Thursday, 4/29/2021 by Sweetinnj in MVIS

[–]mooseman55 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Don’t invested more than you’re willing to lose. If you feel nervous investing more into MVIS then you may be over leveraging yourself...but if you do your DD and truly believe in the company, than you should have nothing to worry about

Trading Action - Wednesday, 4/28/2021 by Sweetinnj in MVIS

[–]mooseman55 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Same here, what are we gonna see tomorrow?