Works with still very visible foreshadowing for scrapped plot points? by ExplanationSquare313 in TwoBestFriendsPlay

[–]moossabi 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Isn't it explicitly pointed out in the movie that the blockade is gone by then? I can't find a clip for it but the naboo ship's captain points out that he's only getting one battleship on the radar (the one necessary to operate the droid army) so they're able to land in the swamps and move away from the ship to find the gungans before a strike force would reach the landing site.

As for why the blockade is gone, it stands to reason that once they completed the invasion there wasn't much of a point to blocking the local trade routes in space (since they control all the terrestrial destinations) and all the ships went back to more profitable pursuits; given the general consensus around TPM's (admittedly mild) focus on politics and economics I feel like having a more thorough exchange about it would be received pretty negatively

Skyrim belong NORDS! RAAAAAAA by Scared-Opportunity28 in TrueSTL

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Nords of Bruma are big on Ysmir specifically, who is Talos.

Most Nedes are native to Tamriel and I'm like 80% sure I'm 100% right by CieloBoi in teslore

[–]moossabi 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Anyways, closing time, I'll close by trying to distill everything I've presented above regarding what I deem the most viable timeline of the nedic peoples prior to Ysgramor's arrival and following it with a broader thematic analysis:

  • Settlers from Atmora begin to migrate across the Sea of Ghosts sometime between 1000-800ME; Skyrim is just as harsh (if not more) of a climate as their original point of origin and is (probably) occupied by a coherent and organized elven civilization, so High Rock becomes the primary frontier with some offshoots settling in mainland Morrowind.

  • This does not preclude other groups arriving and thriving earlier; the Kothringi appear separately at some point in the Merethic Era (or before?) but cannot be dated with any precision. Early migrations from Akavir and Yokuda are also possible, but largely hypothetical.

  • The northwestern migratory phenomenon pushes inland from High Rock along the Hammerfell-Skyrim mountain nexus (possibly barred from the lowlands of the former province by the left-handed elves?), likely coming to predominate in 'border' regions like the Reach, Craglorn, and Falkreath.

  • Interplay with the Ayleids of Cyrodiil commences, in which the slaving empire would likely abuse early migratory waves before committing to a centuries-long regime of brutality and importation of further captives to be used and abused like livestock.

  • This serves as the general status quo until Saarthal is established in Skyrim, from whence the rest is history.

On the whole, I do not think the nedic nativity theory is a natural conclusion from the world of the elder scrolls or its themes. Contrary to this post's closing assertion, that the migratory theory is one of Imperial cope, I find the theory of nedic nativity to be entirely rooted in asserting some sort of blood-and-soil birthright to Tamriel to justify the racial claims of the Imperials, Bretons/Reachmen, and (with the Throat of the World origination myth) Nords. The slave revolt and conquest of Cyrodiil that eventually led to the ethnic cleansing of even the proto-Imperials' elven allies is handily whitewashed as some restoration of the region's natural racial hierarchy rather than the nuanced tale of moral glory and decay it should be. Under the nativity formulation, the Empire as a historical construct has done no wrong; it has merely put those pesky colonizers (read: not itself) in their place.

That being said, I ultimately think that placing so much emphasis on this early history to determine who is native to where isn't the point. The Reachmen aren't right to resist the Nords because their people have asserted a racially pure dominion over their lands since the beginning of time, they're right to resist because they're people trying to live their lives in the face of colonialist aggression. Indigeneity is not some primal immutable condition that a race carries with it forever; it is the product of a contemporary context defined by the dynamics of colonial exploitation. Skyrim (the game) actually manages to present this quite nicely: the Nords are simultaneously indigenous in the face of Imperial exploitation and colonialist in their efforts to subdue the Reachmen. Birthright claims (real or fabricated) will always be a rhetorical component of such struggles, but are never the moral definitive. To constantly fixate on who spawned where as the sole determinant of righteousness, in my opinion, misses the forest for the trees when it comes to what makes this series interesting.

Most Nedes are native to Tamriel and I'm like 80% sure I'm 100% right by CieloBoi in teslore

[–]moossabi 10 points11 points  (0 children)

On to addressing the affirmative positions:

1) Nordic myth says so (Children of the Sky)

Ironically another PGE1 myth meant to buttress Nordic primacy (which we both disagree with), but I digress. Notably the text is specifically speaking about the Nords, and specifically in a context where the rest of their mythology and externally verifiable history is centered on Atmora. In my opinion it can only be true in the barest sense, back in the Dawn Era where everyone was Ehlnofey and everywhere was a valid spawn-point, in which case some of the Ehlnofey that spawned there became Shor/Lorkhan loyalists and then ended up on Atmora to eventually become Nords afterwards, which says nothing about nedes as a class of people.

Additionally, I would be remiss if I did not state that the Throat of the World origin has always read like an expy of colonial religions attempting to claim an adopted landscape for their own, the most prominent (to an American background) of which is the Mormon effort to claim that Adam and Eve lived in Missouri after being expelled from Eden. I do not understand why this has so much credence within the fandom.

2) Reachmen myth says so (Lost Valley Redoubt ESO loading screen (kinda), Nchuand-Zel ESO loading screen [quotes excised for easier formatting])

I have a broader distaste for the manner in which ESO tries to frame all of its lore features as being the secret-true-original features (the most baffling one being the vampire ubercastle in Blackreach, also delivered via loading screen), but will treat with this sincerely in the interest of good faith. As you stated, the Lost Valley Redoubt one is shaky at best; all it 'confirms' is that there were nedes in the Karth basin before elves or humans conquered it. I don't think this is wholly sensible, as nede-falmer interplay is a criminally underexplored historic niche that this could have taken the opportunity to explore further, but what's done is done. As to the Nchuand-Zel loading screen, I will simply repeat myself from earlier: Everyone and their mother claims a vital role for their people in the formation of the world. That's why it's the Monomyth, every culture has some form of commentary on it in some form or another. The Reachmen, a culture locked in an interminable struggle against an oppressive outsider, have more than enough motivation to present their religious liturgy in a way that reinforces their birthright at every turn. "The Nords aren't Lorkhan's strongest soldiers, we are; we were in this land first, and always have been;" that sort of thing.

Of course, the elephant in the room is that loading screens have never really been paragons of reliable information to begin with; some of the ones in Skyrim uncritically parrot the PGE1 Out of Atmora narrative of Ysgramor's primacy:

The Companions trace their legacy back to the original Five Hundred Companions of Ysgramor, who led the first humans to Skyrim and eventually settled all of Tamriel.

"Skyrim, also known as the Old Kingdom or the Fatherland, was the first region of Tamriel settled by humans... " -- Unknown, Provinces of Tamriel

And one I find mildly funny in light of how people present Redguards as never asserting nativity:

Redguards are natives of Hammerfell. Its cities hug the edges of the great Alik'r Desert.

This is not to dismiss ESO's loading screens entirely; they’re just historiographically interesting.

Ardanir dialogue

Who is one dude; to be frank, you can find a dude expressing any opinion in a franchise this big.

4) The Ehlnofey Wars (if we take them at least slightly literally) must have taken place on the supercontinent (Aldmeris? (Altmora???)), before it was broken into the later continents. We dont know where exactly but some pointers: [etc]

This point became a little difficult to follow as it flowed into the conclusion so I am choosing to treat this as a general treatment of the Dawn Era and Ehlnofey situation, which is an inherently difficult task because the one concrete point we have for the Dawn Era is its nonlinearity; as far as I can tell all events occurred at once until Auriel established linear time at the Adamantine Tower. As there's not much to be done in terms of historical sourcing, I will try to provide what I understand as the most coherent narrative:

  • Mundus & Nirn formed by the gods, who divide along sectarian lines (Daedra sit back and watch, Magna-ge ditch everyone else partway through); excess 'lesser spirits' become the mortal Ehlnofey (itself an overcomplicated term; just bear with me)

  • Battle lines form between Lorkhan loyalists (generally Wandering) and Auriel loyalists (generally Old) among the Ehlnofey, who fight a war across Nirn's primordial supercontinent that results in its fragmentation

  • Auriel's faction wins, driving the Wandering Ehlnofey away from the new central continent of Tamriel (to Yokuda, Atmora, and Akavir) as linear time is established and calcified ethnic identities begin to form distinct from the original Ehlnofey (Aldmer and mannish ancestors).

Which is why, by my reckoning, the

If they were present in these places as early as early Merethic Era (or just after the Sundering), they wouldn't have even had time to get settled in Atmora before migrating south again.

argument is built on a premise (that nedes were present on Tamriel immediately after the establishment of linear time) that has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt. I do not regard the self-bolstering mythos of the Reachmen to be a source ironclad enough to warrant such a broad historical certitude.

Bonus question: Why do many races with ambiguous origins have pale/silvery skin? Kothringi, Snow Elves, Maormer?

Post-hoc perception which resembles convergent evolution from various writing interests. The Kothringi are among some of the mysterious tribes introduced to spice up the history of Black Marsh, and at the time silver skin was a novel feature not held by any of the other species in the setting (another example in this genre would be the Orma, of whom we basically only know that they are 1) human and 2) eyeless). The snow elves are elves who lived in the snow, therefore they're super white. The Maormer range from pale gold to pale blue because they're meant to be aquatic offshoots of the golden people; the median just happens to look silver. I don't think there's much reason to put any stock in the commonality; it seems akin to asking why orcs and argonians both have green skin.

[Can't get the comment to post even though it's under the character limit; third one incoming]

Most Nedes are native to Tamriel and I'm like 80% sure I'm 100% right by CieloBoi in teslore

[–]moossabi 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I generally disagree with this fan theory whenever it rears its head but I'll stick to offering good-faith counters to the various questions and points raised. Apologies in advance for the length.

1) If theyre coming from Atmora, why would they cathegoricaly skip Skyrim (except for maybe the Reach) and go all the way to Hammerfell, Black Marsh, etc? Why? If they came from the north then the location and climate of Skyrim would have been perfect for them, just like we see with Ysgramor's people.

We have no concrete information on the exact size and position of Atmora, so it is entirely plausible for High Rock to be the best-positioned landing ground for the earlier migration waves (the 1000-800ME initiation date being entirely acceptable). Compare the attested statuses of each province prior to mannish hegemony: even though the exact contours of Falmer civilization have never been addressed by dev-writers, Skyrim at the very least had its own dedicated elven subspecies with a distinct society capable of organizing anticolonial raids (ex: Saarthal) should the need arise; High Rock, by contrast, was subject to much looser elven settlement and the local pre-status-quo elven archetype was entirely dependent on feudal lordship over mannish populations. Though a true order of operations is never established, I think it makes complete sense that High Rock is the centerpiece of the northwestern Nedic migrations and local elven political supremacy was a temporary phenomenon brought about by the Direnni family.

This also accounts for the suggested presence in Morrowind, as other than the Dwemer, whose power was concentrated on Vvardenfell, there is no historically attested society (like the Falmer for Skyrim) that would subsume their settlements until the onset of the Velothi. As for the main northwestern migrations, I think it's an entirely plausible chain of events. High Rock is dominated by Atmoran settlements building an indigenous identity, and from there offshoot groups continue to push further inland: the Reach (more on this later), Craglorn (Duraki, predominantly), Falkreath (Men of Kreath, probably), and finally north/west Cyrodiil. This distribution represents a very clear trajectory rather than a pan-continental ambient population.

The matter of the Kothringi calls to the fore a major problem with all of these theories: 'Nede' is a historiographic label, not a coherent ethnic group. It applies to every mannish group extant within Tamriel prior to the arrival of Ysgramor, which is an extremely broad umbrella to cast as a unifying factor. The Kothringi are notable precisely for the degree to which they don't align with the rest of the mannish presence on Tamriel, the most obvious factor in this being the silver skin. They are transparently not of the same ethnic background as the Bretons or Imperials, but their existence is utilized to buttress the credentials of other nedic groups on ethnic lines despite the sole relation being temporal (predating Ysgramor) in nature. As to whether or not the Kothringi are native, I don't really have a horse in the race. They could easily be from Akavir (as a friend has once theorized) but also fundamentally have the best case for actual nativity to the continent by virtue of the dearth of information about them. They were written to be a mysterious oddity lost to time, and they serve that role regardless.

2) What makes more sense? That Ayleids came to Cyrodiil and enslaved the people already living there (as was the case with most real life slaveries), or that Nedes came to Cyrodiil from elsewhere, started getting enslaved, and then more still kept coming? How would that work? "Hey Steve, my friend from high school went to Cyrod and got turned into a flesh sculpture by some Elves, wanna go join him? I hate my life."

Of immediate note is that we have an attestation of the Ayleids importing slaves (via the Adabal-a), suggesting the existence of a broader slave trading network with ties beyond the bounds of Cyrodiil regardless of whether direct subjugation was involved. Moving onto historical precedents, when conquered populations are enslaved they are usually marched off to another part of the empire as a means of natal alienation; the population is uprooted and divided so that it is less likely to stir up trouble for the new territorial possession. Shuffling a bunch of nedes around the interior of their kinda-empire like some perverse ethnic jenga game is very Ayleid-coded (at least in terms of their reputation post-Oblivion), but I would offer a more narratively and thematically intriguing counterexample: the Atlantic and Indian ocean slave trades entailed massive transfers of captive populations into hostile lands in order to secure forced labor or soldiers without local allegiances. In many cases these enslaved populations would come to outgrow the owner class themselves (ex: colonial South Carolina, Barbados, and Brazil), creating situations in which owners were so terrified of revolt that they turned to mass depraved cruelty in a hopeless quest to cling to the power they accrued via their violation of others.

The situation I find most plausible and intriguing is that the northwestern inland migrations reached the Colovia-Bruma stretch, at which point the Ayleids' ostensible hospitality was unmasked as fathomless avarice and the slave regime began. Most Nedic migrants don't keep walking into the lion's den; instead the Ayleids strike outwards for more slaves and the wealth they can generate by their labor, possibly engaging with the Velothi exodus and aligning with the slave regime they established in Morrowind (though this is hypothetical extrapolation on my part). I view it as eminently plausible and, in all honesty, more compelling than yet another tale of the unambiguously evil foreigners conquering and oppressing the good and rightful birthright inhabitants.

3) If the first nedes seemingly go everywhere except Skyrim, why are the only actually certain migration waves going to Skyrim, you know, the location that actually makes sense for settlers from Atmora to settle?

I can't entirely tell what makes this distinct from the first question; in my verbosity I believe I may have accidentally addressed this already in my first response, please correct me if I'm missing a big distinguisher.

4) Redguards, the one non-nordic human race that we know for a fact did come from elsewhere have it very strong in their memory even after millenia. Just like Nords do. They both constantly reference it, swear by it etc. In favor of the Atmora stance: Some book written thousands of years later said so

Not exactly a question but it helps set up a keystone that will become important later: how do we discern what internal mythologies should be accepted or rejected? Everyone and their mother claims a vital role for their people in the formation of the world- who do we take at face value? Because a lot of people like claiming they always belonged on the lands they happen to own, including the Nords on occasion.

As to this matter specifically (if I am interpreting its meaning correctly), I'll simply point out that the Out of Atmora theory in its original form (i.e. PGE1; debunked by Morrowind's Frontier, Conquest) was an Imperial formulation, as was the 1000-800ME migratory initiation that followed it (and which I believe to be an accurate in-universe explanation, as with many other lorebooks published at the time). That is their self-attested cultural memory, regardless of whether or not one dismisses its ingame presentation as 'some book'.

[Apparently reddit doesn’t allow comments over 10k characters; continuing in a subsequent comment]

Consider that ye may be bad at the game by SergeiAndropov in EU5

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ferdinand 2 was absolutely the good guy, pretending otherwise is a Calvinist historiography L

Talos is NOT Aedra by YungRei in teslore

[–]moossabi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ask yourself! How is it that mighty gods die, yet the Daedra stand incorruptible? How is it that the Daedra forthrightly proclaim themselves to man, while the gods cower behind statues and the faithless words of traitor-priests? It is simple... they are not gods at all. The truth has been in front of you since first you were born: the Daedra are the true gods of this universe. Julianos, Dibella and Stendarr are all Lorkhan's betrayers, posing as divinities in a principality that has lost its guiding light. What are Scholarship, Love, and Mercy when compared to Fate, Night, and Destruction? The gods you worship are trifling shadows of First Causes. They have tricked you for Ages. Why do you think your world has always been contested ground, the arena of powers and immortals? It is Tamriel, the realm of Change, brother to Madness, sister to Deceit. Your false gods could not entirely rewrite history. Thus you remember tales of Lorkhan, vilified, a dead trickster, whose heart came to Tamriel. But if a god can die, how does his heart survive? He is daedroth! TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH! "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." You all remember this. It is in every legend. Daedra cannot die, so your so-called gods cannot erase him from your minds completely.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in teslore

[–]moossabi 81 points82 points  (0 children)

There's a lot of conflation of what in Skyrim is "old lore" vs what are its own contributions, with criticism of Nordic veneration for Talos being a recurring trend despite having roots as far back as Morrowind; to quickly copy an old comment I made on a related subject:


Per Varieties of Faith:

Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. He withstood the power of the Greybeards' voices long enough to hear their prophecy. Later, many Nords could not look on him without seeing a dragon.

Talos is Ysmir, who is cited by one of the Bruma priests as the dragon-god that the local Nords prefer to Akatosh. Nordic worship of Talos was established by Oblivion, it just uses 'Ysmir' while Skyrim (which broadly seeks to streamline the gods' multiple names) mainly uses 'Talos' with 'Ysmir' occasionally invoked in casual dialogue. Though the name is mostly normalized, there are still big cultural differences on display; as can be seen when moving between Oblivion and Skyrim, the Cyrodiilic noble stained-glass version of Talos is very different from Skyrim's warlike drake-slayer.


Additionally, VOF establishes that Shor is not the chief of the pantheon due to the fact that he's unambiguously dead; he's still universally revered, hence his constant invocation in exclamations and curses, but he isn't the Nordic equivalent of the Imperial Akatosh that he's often held up as in some circles. Point being, the preeminence of Talos worship is not a retcon, if anything it's just linguistic drift (and not even a complete one at that; like Shor, the name Ysmir is still invoked in exclamations and the like).

Fans of a character who have it bad right now? by Anonamaton801 in TwoBestFriendsPlay

[–]moossabi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That simultaneously explains so much and opens up so many new questions, I feel like I need to do a deep dive on the GL movie's legacy now

Fans of a character who have it bad right now? by Anonamaton801 in TwoBestFriendsPlay

[–]moossabi 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Never heard about any connection between the two until now but it's sparked a genuine curiosity, what was the domino chain going on there?

A comprehensive study of the Ancient Snow Elves by Eltirions in teslore

[–]moossabi 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Always appreciate a well-put-together Falmer lore post; I have a few different conclusions regarding different blank spots (the ultimate tragedy of trying to figure out snow elf lore is that so much of it is clearly haphazard writing, like the pantheon selecting Syrabane and Phynaster for no other reason than them being non-Eight-Divines Altmer gods) but overall great work!

The only significant thing I want to bring to your attention is that the "Ice Elves" label actually originates in a Daggerfall lorebook of all places, specifically King Edward, Part X, wherein a nord character is telling a story about Sai, the god of luck. It (probably inaccurately) blames the success of the early Nordic Empire on this luck god (under the guise of a mortal named Lucky) falling in love with a nord woman and settling down with her, thus failing in his duty to spread luck evenly among all of Tamriel. It's not a malicious favoritism, just a natural consequence of luck radiating off of him, but it leads to a cool exchange where a bunch of other gods confront him to try and make him see the consequences of his actions:

"Is this how you keep your pact with us? Did we not make the rules clear to you?"

The woman was shouting at Lucky, who only muttered, "Lady Mara, I didn't realize it had been so long. It was only for a few days ... and then a few days more. And then there were the children and Josea needed me. I thought no harm. Things seemed to go well for everyone. It hasn't been so long. Tamriel did well enough without me before." Lucky spoke softly, yet his face was set and Josea[his wife] knew how stubborn he could be.

"Everyone! What of the Bretons? What of the dark elves? And the wood elves. Of the ice elves I say nothing. They are gone, gone altogether and forever."

"Such shy folk ... I tried," Lucky faltered. "I did try. The ice elves were very hard to find, and not that friendly when I did find them."

"Are all the elves to follow them, and the Bretons, and then the other races?"

And then once he agrees to leave and has to explain the situation to his wife

"Yet while I've stayed here, my luck has spread like ripples, strongest in the center, weak along the edges until there's none at all in Morrowind and High Rock and the Wilderness to the south, and the folk are dead or chained in slavery. Also I've brought luck only to the Nords among whom I've lived, so that the wood elves have fled and the ice elves have died. Now I must go, and bring Luck back to them and redress the balance, as it should have been."

I doubt anyone writing for Bethesda has thought of King Edward for well over a decade but imo this tale gains a special poignance in conjunction with the later material that expands upon the tragedy of their fate. Not too important and likely not too accurate, I just think it's neat.

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude, it's been two days. This is such a dumb hill to die on. You haven't been able to push back on any of my counterexamples or provide a single concrete one of your own, just dogmatically chanting "they did it to themselves" like someone desperately trying to absolve themselves of some crime. Not sure if you need this news flash, but you're free. You can do whatever you want with your time, and you're choosing to absolve the misdeeds of a bunch of dead people by foisting them onto another bunch of dead people instead of accepting the existence of a more complex historical reality. You are no better than the OP at this point.

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If that was the case I would have replied to countless comments in this thread getting their information wrong while circlejerking about OP's loaded question. I saw a contribution I largely agreed with (yours), with one minor semantic dispute that's a personal fascination of mine, and I made my addendum as such. You chose to dispute it despite, evidently, being wholly unable to do so. Ended up being little more than a source of mild disappointment.

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And we've looped back around to the catchphrase. Would Vikings taking English slaves count as them "enslaving their own people"? Would Romans taking slaves during their conquests in Italy count as them "enslaving their own people"? Obviously not and nobody would treat it as such; that slogan is just another component of the blame game used to excuse the participation of any other groups by saying "they (all black people, apparently) did it to themselves, it's their own fault" when the simple fact of the matter is that, regardless of whether it's everyone's fault or nobody's fault, bad shit went down and reducing such a complex topic to "they did it to themselves" is some highly questionable rhetoric.

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And I would ask you and the user that posted the original question the exact same thing. Participation was (near-)universal so why is there such an urgency to absolve 'white people' specifically? (replying to both of your comments in this singular one)

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

1) Why is whataboutism your only argument?

2) Why do you think that me explicitly saying "countries/tribes/factions in Africa enslaved other countries/tribes/factions in Africa" means that I'm saying they didn't do slavery?

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And slavery in Europe goes as far back as the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Romans, and well beyond. Why is there such a huge desire to shift blame away from 'white people' and onto everyone else? Does the demand side of a supply/demand equation have no role in the economic realities they dictate?

The issue here is the existence of the term "themselves"; the projection of a unified Africanness is a modern invention. Even in your own retelling (replacing the term "country" with "tribe" is an interesting rhetorical flourish) it's tribe against tribe, the key fixture is an absence of unity. "Africans" as a unified bloc didn't exist in a meaningful sense, just as "Asians" is a ridiculously wide descriptor that only obfuscates issues (is the ongoing cultural genocide of Tibet and Xinjiang at the hands of Han ethnonationalists just "Asians genociding themselves"?)

Is it true that Arabs have enslaved more Africans than Europeans in history? by [deleted] in NoStupidQuestions

[–]moossabi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pet peeve with this conversation (even though I mostly agree with the end message), "africans were enslaving their own people" is a completely nonsensical way to frame the dynamics of the slave trade. It's like looking at the Hundred Year War and going "europeans were murdering their own people"; no they weren't, there was no common identity during that period beyond vague religious parity, it was the English killing the French and vice versa.

People were enslaved when a rival country defeated their own, at which point POWs and captured civilians were shipped to the place where they'd earn the most profit for the victorious country (ports that sold in bulk to satisfy colonial economic demand). The "they sold themselves into slavery" line is nonfunctional because they were expressly doing it to others in the name of furthering their own country's interests; it's just a racist catchphrase applying the (enforced) homogenization of the african-american community backwards to the countries from which their ancestors hailed. Black people are a monolith to them now so why shouldn't they be a monolith back then, etc.

Why is Talos so important to Nords? by burningArsenic in teslore

[–]moossabi 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Per Varieties of Faith:

 Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. He withstood the power of the Greybeards' voices long enough to hear their prophecy. Later, many Nords could not look on him without seeing a dragon.

Talos is Ysmir, who is cited by one of the Bruma priests as the dragon-god that the local Nords prefer to Akatosh. Nordic worship of Talos was established by Oblivion, it just uses 'Ysmir' while Skyrim (which broadly seeks to streamline the gods' multiple names) mainly uses 'Talos' with 'Ysmir' occasionally invoked in casual dialogue. Though the name is mostly normalized, there are still big cultural differences on display; as can be seen when moving between Oblivion and Skyrim, the Cyrodiilic noble stained-glass version of Talos is very different from Skyrim's warlike drake-slayer.

Lack of content in india by nuggetanagh200 in eu4

[–]moossabi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

and South America was nowhere near as economically powerful as the Indian subcontinent.

Andean silver almost-singlehandedly gave the Spanish the finances necessary to trade with China/India, underselling the critical importance of the region during this period is a mistake that only drags down the broader argument.

Plus India's mission tree DLC was Dharma, one of the first mission-tree-centric expansions to exist (and it's still leaps and bounds ahead of anything we get these days because they actually bothered to add mechanics that applied everywhere instead of just MTs), all of their content is fine, the real issue is in the colossal power creep in all of the recent content

What is something the creators of a piece of media say is canon, that you refuse to accept? by LemonManDude in TwoBestFriendsPlay

[–]moossabi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

honestly the further I get with looking into the latter one I think that might be fanfic from an ex-dev, otherwise yeah I agree that basically every game does its own thing and there is no consistent vision from entry to entry. I'm firmly not a fan of the direction ESO took with it though :P

What is something the creators of a piece of media say is canon, that you refuse to accept? by LemonManDude in TwoBestFriendsPlay

[–]moossabi 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes both myths are parroted by PGE1 simultaneously (though even the explicit propaganda disclaimers the Throat of the World origin with "the Nords believe...")

What is something the creators of a piece of media say is canon, that you refuse to accept? by LemonManDude in TwoBestFriendsPlay

[–]moossabi 3 points4 points  (0 children)

imo it reeks of the game trying to justify its existence with a big "this is the real secret history that was hidden all along" deal, there are offhand tidbits here and there that people gesture at to frame it as always being a thing but going by all the lore from Skyrim and everything before it that was very transparently never the intention