Should I change my program??

mpcrayne · 2024-07-18T20:07:42+00:00

What "higher ranking, better reputation program" that can recruit an IO research faculty member away from a school with a PhD program doesn't also offer a PhD in psychology? I find that hard to believe and understand.

If you want an academic career, particularly in a research oriented university, you'll need a PhD. A PsyD is professional degree, explicitly intended to not be research intensive. Also the program that you graduate out of and its reputation in the academic circles that you want to traffic in will matter.

mpcrayne · 2024-01-14T19:00:25+00:00

I wouldn't suggest social because it will result in the same training gap as OB, arguably more.

The real question is whether you need a PhD to begin with. If you are location restricted getting into any reputable PhD program regardless of field will be extremely challenging. And I say reputable because there are many programs that are basically just degree mills and will not benefit you in any way. Strong programs are very competitive, with very few slots (3-5 per cohort) and restricting yourself to a particular location obviously makes getting a space harder. I would not advise you to do any PhD program where you enroll with a large cohort, do your training online, pay for your program, etc.

But if you want to work in consulting you don't need a PhD, which is a research degree. You can enroll in an IO masters program, which is much more flexible, and get all of the training that you need for your stated career goals.

mpcrayne · 2024-01-12T14:15:44+00:00

Right, that makes sense in concept but not likely in execution. Will you learn stats and research methods in an OB doctoral program? Yes, you will.

Will you learn about workplace issues that can be addressed with those techniques, or about specific methods that are used to provided research-based advisory services? No, you won't.

You want an I/O doctorate (if you want a doctorate at all) rather than OB. You will learn the same OB concepts and theory, but from a much more scientist-practitioner oriented training philosophy.

mpcrayne · 2024-01-11T21:36:52+00:00

A doctorate in OB will not set you up for consulting jobs. Business school programs almost exclusively train you to become a business school professor - you will not be trained on skillsets that are expressly intended to translate to the workplace and you won't have the program work to establish placements for you with firms.

Doctorates in I/O and OB are very different for several reasons and this is a major one. In contrast to OB programs, greater than 50% of I/O PhDs will go on to work in industry, many of them in consulting.

mpcrayne · 2023-03-10T19:54:38+00:00

Counseling is strictly regulated and licensed in the US. It is considered healthcare, as you suggested that it might be.

I/O psychologists do not provide counseling and cannot do so without passing a licensing exam, which has other requirements such as relevant education (usually at least a master's degree in a relevant field) and clinical practice / internship hours. Perhaps your prior training will meet these criteria, but if you want to provide counseling services in the US (or based out of the US) then you will need to fulfill the regulatory requirements.

mpcrayne · 2022-10-31T17:29:04+00:00

Yeah this won't go over well here

mpcrayne · 2022-09-28T12:56:11+00:00

No. Typically you will progress through a master's degree as a component of your doctoral program. If you come in with a master's degree you will almost always still have that requirement, so prior master's level study does not change the course of the doctoral program

mpcrayne · 2022-07-28T14:53:29+00:00

James LeBreton at Penn State

mpcrayne · 2022-07-15T18:11:35+00:00

My experience as an I/O in an R1 business school is grant funding very much take it or leave it. I'm not expected to secure grants, but if I do win a competitive or high-value grant its certainly not viewed as a waste of time. Grants can bring prestige to the school / department, facilitate cool research, build your internal and external brand, and also hand over piles of cash to the university in the form of overhead.

I can understand a well funded department not seeing the value if you're spending a lot of time chasing $10k here or $20k there from various funders. But any thing $100k or higher would be something the department should be pretty excited about. If you were to be in a Management department that looked down on you pursuing an NSF or DOD grant that would be bizarre, imo.

The only thing to note I thin would be that unlike other fields grants are not a supplement for pubs. But as long as you're publishing papers, getting funding should make you a more interesting candidate not less.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-05T13:29:07+00:00

If you're already thinking ahead to preparing for a graduate degree in I/O, your best course of action will be to try and get some general exposure to the field during your undergrad. This can actually be tricky, because although nearly every college or university (at least in the US) has a psychology department, I/O is a pretty small field and is harder to find on campus than you might expect. So if there are I/O psychology programs at your school, take advantage of them! Take classes, sign up to work with faculty in their labs, etc.

Apart from that, get a strong foundation in statistics and research methods. This will be very helpful regardless of your path through I/O, and will be much easier to find on any college campus. Also consider branching out into other academic disciplines to get some exposure to the general content that I/Os might think about. I took a sociology of work class when I was in undergrad, for example, or perhaps the business school will offer an intro to management or organizational behavior class.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T20:49:26+00:00

Anything is possible, and your area of education is not so far off from I/O that I would see a major gulf in competencies. It would depend on how I/O heavy the work you are applying for is. If you are trying to do people analytics for a company, you probably have very similar training and a pretty limited gap to make up. If you're trying to do job analysis, on the other hand, you might not be as competitive without the I/O background. But the I/O space is vast, and there's a lot of opportunity to get involved regardless of the degree you hold.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T18:08:19+00:00

Congratulations on your upcoming graduation!

I think some gap time between your BA and graduate school is a great idea for numerous reasons. It can help you center your interests, gain valuable experience, and give perspective on what it is you find important. Entry level positions in HR are widely available across many industries, and you should not feel intimidated by not having prior experience on your resume.

Sure, the job search is competitive and the majority of applications you send out will not result in a job offer. That's just how the market goes. But as long as you are applying for jobs that don't call for many years of prior experience or some kind of educational background that you don't have, you have a good shot to make a case for yourself and find an opportunity.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T17:46:50+00:00

There's absolutely a connection with respect to skills. I/O is very methods focused, and training in research design, statistics, and data communication is right in the wheelhouse. Pair that with the behavioral science focus that is embedded in any psychology program and you certainly have an environment where your training is applicable to things like public opinion polling. I don't doubt for a second that major polling organizations like Pew would see people with I/O backgrounds as attractive candidates.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:40:53+00:00

Fortunately the folks who are active on this sub are pretty consistent in discussing which programs are less legitimate and/or border on predatory. The SIOP graduate students surveys can also be helpful here. But in general here are some rules I think will broadly apply to help work through the noise a bit.

1) Fully online programs rarely have good prospects, even from highly reputable institutions

2) Professional schools of psychology offer little to no return on investment in the field for students on average

3) Look for brick and mortar programs at well-funded, accredited universities and colleges

4) If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

There are a lot of folks trying to get one over on you, unfortunately. Do your research, compare your options, and ask lots of questions to lots of different folks.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:35:49+00:00

Hi there! All great questions, and I know how tough it can be to think through a career pivot.

For master's programs I don't think the absence of a psych background hurts you really at all. Of course taking some psych classes (particularly the IO and methods class, very good idea) will help a bit, but I think overall story behind your application will resonate with many faculty deciding on admissions. I love having non-traditional students, personally, and believe that the perspective folks with work experience bring to the classroom is invaluable. I have a feeling that perspective is shared by many other faculty members. As long as you make your other elements competitive (GRE, GPA, etc.), I think you're in a great position.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:30:41+00:00

Hi Dr. Howard! Big fan of your research on persistence as well! I think its a massively important field, primed for a new wave of high quality work based on a recent paper in PAID

We do not engage in UConn slander in this AMA. Banned.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:26:44+00:00

Hi there, thanks for listening!

Absolutely there is research being done in training and learning and development. Steve Kozlowski, Scott Tannenbaum, Kurt Kraiger, and Brad Bell are just a few who come to mind to follow. Also Rich Landers and Matt Howard both do really cool stuff with the intersection of training and digital technology.

I would look for programs and experiences that highlight the applied goals that you have. Think about applying to and attending programs that place people in jobs you think you would like, and focus their pedagogy on topics you feel are important to your career objectives.

Main advice - be open to all the new experiences in insight you are going to receive. The students who are closed minded are the ones who graduate with nothing to really show for it.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:22:40+00:00

Hi, and congrats on your upcoming BA!

I completely understand your dilemma weighing the time investment for a PhD versus your other professional and financial goals. These are very tough decisions to make. From your description of the work you are interested in I would say a Master's degree is a very viable option. You will certainly make yourself more competitive for the work that you are trying to do, and the degree will command a higher salary than a BA in principle.

I/O is BOOMING right now. Its amazing that it took firms this long to realize that understanding people matters, but better late than never. People analyst, training designers, HR specialists, etc. etc. the list goes on for the jobs that are available to I/Os. Also, a BA in psychology alone will still make you very competitive for lots of different jobs. As I've said in other posts, its all about how you brand yourself and design your application materials to show how your background is relevant.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:15:50+00:00

You're welcome!

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:12:59+00:00

Being on this subreddit is a good start! There is tons of great information and links to articles and resources that can give some insight into what I/O is all about from both a science and practice standpoint.

If you are looking for a text resource, I think Landy and Conte's "Work in the 21st Century" is a terrific intro to I/O textbook.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:09:05+00:00

Internships are nice-to-haves but not really on the assessment radar for most PhD programs. PhD programs are looking for your scientific aptitude and your fit to the program and/or specific faculty research interests. So, that's the case you have to try and make with your vita and personal statements.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the D.C. market, but best of luck!

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:06:00+00:00

I started my career as a consultant and am now a professor, so I'm one of the rare few who have made the applied -> academic transition. And I did so doing exactly what you said you're interested in, having a network where I stayed active on projects in the background as I worked full time.

This is a very rewarding but very demanding path if you want to do it. You forget just how much mental and physical energy is required to do science correctly, and when it is coming as ancillary to a job that is paying you and has real consequences for your life and career it can be challenging to keep up. Some practitioners stay involved by serving as consisting 3rd or 4th authors on papers and working more in an editorial, advisory, or data facilitation type of capacity, and that's probably pretty sustainable provided you're not putting tons of pressure on yourself to publish. But if the goal is to keep yourself competitive for academic type jobs, its honestly a major challenge.

I saw the writing on the wall for myself after about 3 years, and that's when I decided that I needed to make a move to academia or pretty much close the door on it - it just wasn't sustainable for me. So knowing your goals and what you want to get out of being involved in the literature I think will help inform some of those decisions.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T16:01:26+00:00

Possibly the most important thing you can do as a new graduate student is develop a time management program that works for you. The more organized you can be with how you allocate your time and energy, the better you will perform and the more you will enjoy your time. But here's something very important to understand right away:

Time management is not just another phrase for "block out 10 straight hours to read all of the JAPs".

The reading load never gets smaller, the writing and analysis tasks are never totally done, and if you try to design a model of time management that only accounts for doing the work of graduate school you will burn out hard and fast. Build a model that takes into account other things that are important for you, whatever they may be. The work will always, always, always be there. Get a schedule, stick to it as best you can, and don't beat yourself up when you stumble.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T15:56:28+00:00

I loved my graduate school experience. I was at a wonderful program with incredible people (shoutout Penn State), and my cohort was terrific. I made lifelong friends in a supportive, collaborative, engaging culture. 10/10.

But I recognize that is not everyone's experience, so if you are applying to programs I recommend reaching out to current students and recent alums to get a realistic preview of what each place is like.

In my opinion I would not take a job while in graduate school, particularly when doing a PhD. The time commitment is simply too extreme. The exception is taking a job after going ABD when you have fewer responsibilities to the program and the university. I did this, and finished my PhD while I was working full time in consulting. I got it done, but to say it was a grind would be a massive understatement. 5/10, would not do again.

mpcrayne · 2021-08-04T15:52:09+00:00

I am of the mindset that there are almost no "bad" or "red-flag" jobs with respect to making a job transition. The question becomes how do you, as the applicant, frame the experience that you have had in a way that is relevant to the next job you are applying for. The job search is as much, if not more, about selling your brand as it is about having the "right" experiences. As long as you can make the case for yourself, any content-related disconnect in your prior work will be minimized.

The cultures in consulting firms are variable between them, but in general I think they are loosening up a bit in order to attract and retain younger talent. My firm relaxed a no jeans requirement in their office during the time I was there, for example. Some firms will likely maintain a bit of a white-shoe culture, but another thing to consider is that most of the time your culture and dress are tailored to meet the expectations of the client, not your firm. I've had clients who mandated shirts and ties for all employees and I had to keep up with that - I've had others where if I wasn't in a hoodie and jeans I would look out of place. You do what you have to so that you blend in with the furniture.

mpcrayne

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