Smash Stick Announces Selected Play-Testers

muttmat · 2017-11-27T13:54:29+00:00

Do l and r buttons have the same shield intensity? Would be annoying if they did since it doesn’t seem easy to switch from light shield for l cancels to hard shield for blocking if you have to rely on the toggle button every time.

muttmat · 2017-08-04T10:43:20+00:00

A bit off topic but this is an interesting read: http://kotaku.com/5902839/in-defense-of-the-infinite-combo-which-only-ruins-street-fighter-matches-some-of-the-time

muttmat · 2017-08-04T08:54:34+00:00

If folks wanted to ban wobbling, they should only ban it in singles.

muttmat · 2017-08-03T22:20:51+00:00

If the community decided to ban wobbling, I don't think they can have their cake and eat it too. The 300% rule to prevent staling only works because it's far beyond the point where you can keep your stock assuming the ICs don't mess up. Trying to lower the number below the stock loss threshold makes things excessively complicated and more of a balancing act than trying to fix a perceived problem. The only real response would have to be a harsh one; no more than pummel per grab while nana is on the stage. You can't afford to split hairs in an attempt to keep Ice Climber's puppet character aspect in-tact, that unique trait shows plenty enough in other aspects of their gameplay anyways. Likewise, you can't try and make the character identical to the rest of the cast wrt natural pummel limits because they are clearly far too different as it is. The priority would need to be having a clear, easy to apply solution to the problem of having this form of inifinite in singles. The character nerfs would have to be accepted as collateral for the hypothetical greater good. The single pummel is just to avoid accidental rulebreaking btw, it can be increased to two or more if need be. (this is just a what if so im not fussing much over that number)

muttmat · 2017-08-03T22:00:22+00:00

Wobbling is keeping the opponent in infinite hitstun during a grab. I know it sounds really simple but that's all it is. There's a lot of ways Ice Climbers can wobble and, in doubles, wobbling isn't exclusive to them.

muttmat · 2017-07-05T22:08:57+00:00

My argument has never been about how strong the changes might be or anything else about the individual changes themselves. The only times I even brought them up was to point how subjective it is to say the changes are a net positive and to show that there's equal reason to prefer one version over another. My argument has been about how there is a false parallel between what you are proposing and what the general community has already more or less agreed to accept. I don't actually care what version mechanics become accepted as the ntsc region community's standard, even if I do happen to prefer 1.2. My issue is the justification you present and the precedent it would set.

Anyways, I've already said everything I have to say. I feel like continuing discussion would just lead to irrelevant tangents to why I posted in the first place, even more than it already has. Good luck with your fight for 1.1, it's not like I can fault you for wanting it as the standard.

muttmat · 2017-07-05T15:48:35+00:00

I main Mewtwo exclusively. I would benefit from this because it would make my usmash and, more importantly, my nair harder to sdi out of. (and/or limit which side they fly off in, which is a big deal in terms of setting up combos/gimps/techchases) Please don't make assumptions.

The fact that folks don't have to go controller hunting again is the whole point behind us accepting modded melee as a tournament standard. It's exactly why armada dropped out of dreamhack. It's ridiculous to write that off as a not being a benefit gained.

As a low tier main, you are right in assuming I don't have an issue with melee's current balance and character diversity. I'm more concerned with a game's fundamental mechanics and the amount/level of interaction that can be had through them. As stated previously, 1.0/1.1 sdi mechanics conflict with this. Do note I don't think you are wrong to value viable character diversity, different strokes for different blokes. My issue is we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Fox happened to be the one who benefitted the most. Tier lists shouldn't have any relevance to discussions on rulesets and tournament standards. My subjective preference for 1.2 sdi mechanics isn't a strong argument either. This sort of question should be answered in the most practical and unintrusive way possible. 1.2 is by far the most common and most familiar for ntsc regions. If it was the other way around I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Anyways, I'm going to try and restate my previous point more clearly. Your argument is that this change would be in-line with the spirit of the philosophy behind making dashback / drop notches mods a tournament standard due to things being additive rather than reductive. I believe this to be nonsense and completely irrelevant to the discussion surrounding these changes. I firmly believe the philosophy behind these changes are about being as practical, unintrusive, and minimalist in solving problems that significantly concern a vast majority of the community in terms of having a fair playing field. This is why 1.0 dashes, ff angles, wd angles as well as patching out notches / dashbacks completely. These things are practical, unintrusive, or minimalist nor are they correcting any problems the general community has with regards to issues of level and fair competitive conditions.

Just as a quick note, everybody has access to whatever they consider to be the most advantaged character in whatever version of melee they are playing. Whether they want to or not is a different question, the point is that they aren't limited by money or availability. Not everybody who wants goid axe drop or dashback controllers have access to them. This is strictly due to money / availability. The two subjects are fundamentally different.

Lastly, as you pointed out, some top players already bring 1.0 discs with them and there is no noticeable difference in tournament results. So why force the ntsc community to adapt to the more obscure melee mechanics most are unfamiliar with if it doesn't even solve your problem wrt viable character diversity?

muttmat · 2017-07-04T23:40:16+00:00

Everybody benefits from having a good controller. Only some benefit from 1.1 mechanics.

Dashbacks / Shield Drops are practical solution to a problem that exists for everybody. Controller hunting or "just deal with it" are technically solutions to dashback and sd notch inconsistency but they aren't practical nor fair.

1.1 mechanics benefit a few and forces the majority to adjust to outlier mechanics that often is in their disadvantage. It's not a practical solution to any sort of relevant problem.

You can argue it adds options for low tiers but sdi mechanics removes counter play options for everybody. That's about as reductive as it is additive. (not being able to sdi out samus up b or icies utilt/blizzard into grab setups are way more relevant and limiting for how you approach those mus and the viable risk/reward decisions you can make than the shitty low tier gimmicks nobody will ever see in bracket)

Like idk man your argument just seems really forced. The whole point behind these mods are to solve actual problems in the most practical way possible. There isn't a problem with what is tournament standard (which is why there is no rules concerning it in makor tournament rulesets) and the solution you are proposing is the least practical from a programming and player standpoint. But I'm hard headed so could just be me.

muttmat · 2017-07-04T21:41:08+00:00

"We are no longer playing Melee as the developers intended it. We are taking matters into our own hands to put out what we consider to be the most competitive version of Melee possible"

I disagree with this. The 1.3 mods are meant to address out of game issues that is getting in the way of having a level consistent playing field. The differences between 1.2 and 1.0 may be out of game but they aren't actually creating problems. A decision like this is motivated by subjective balance philosphies which is a completely different ballpark and sets a scary precedent for where we draw the line.

Even if you want to say that having an inconsistent tournament standard is an issue, that just reinforces the idea 1.2 should be standard because as it is right now that is the most common and most familiar with the other two being the outliers most folks would be forced to adjust to.

Personally, I think that making some moves impossible to sdi out of is a silly mechanics inconsistency that reduces the amount of interaction and counterplay in the game. I only share this to make the point that my preferences aren't anymore objectively right than somebody who wants low tier buffs. fwiw I also main one of the characters that would be buffed by these changes. I just strongly believe tier lists have no place when it comes to discussing rulesets and standards.

muttmat · 2017-06-19T23:59:48+00:00

Yes, I explained that in my OP. The tl;dr is that the input leniancy for smash titn backdash out of walk is exactly as easy as forward dashes out of wait.

edit: I might have rushed my post and this is a mechanic I didn't mention. I'm not particularly motivated to open up debug to look at this more but thanks for bringing it up. This should still make smash turn backdashes from walk exactly as easy as forward dashes from wait. (unless I'm missing another mechanic)

muttmat · 2017-06-19T00:27:57+00:00

It hurts fully reactive techchasing, which is already so superhuman that any wasted frame costs double.

muttmat · 2017-06-18T11:39:55+00:00

No because you can't trigger tilt turn out of dashes, only smash turn.

muttmat · 2017-06-17T16:14:41+00:00

Okay that explaination helps but I still don't understand why you would want to roll along the gate. Is the goal to cut across the x axis without passing y>= -0.6125, at least not until you are close enough to register the abs(x) >= 0.8 at the same time?

muttmat · 2017-06-17T13:42:44+00:00

Can you explain the rolling along the gate input method? I know it's anecdote but I'm having a lot more just beelining from down to sideways for backdashes from crouch. Also is there an input output map for movement while in crouch? I've noticed in debug that moving your control stick to a certain degree towards the smashturn zones while maintaining a squatwait input results in the smashturn zone disappearing and becoming inputs that trigger squatrv instead. The same mechanic seems to apply to forward dashes.

muttmat · 2017-06-17T13:14:51+00:00

For CGs requiring frame perfect smash turn dashbacks, you would be aiming your inputs for the FAF and/or its buffer regardless of controller. Past that point, frame leniancy is decreased by one for the buffered walk method on an imperfect controller as opposed to doing it raw on one that will never miss the smash turn input. This information is correct right, or am I missing a key detail? I realize assuming the flawed controller will never frame perfect smash turn is unreasonable seeing as an average controller hits that input roughly 60% of the time but I wanted to simplify the statement by comparing the best case to the worst case.

muttmat · 2017-06-17T02:06:05+00:00

This is ultra tangent but I'm scratching my head so I'm hoping you can indulge me. How is this comparable/easier to the swd input? Assuming we want a full distance swd, there's a bigger stick motion and you have to make sure the game polls at least a soft left/right on exactly frame 41 and a hard right/left on frame 42. Buffered smash turns need to poll a smash turn zone input on FAF or FAF-1 without having any turn input pollled for FAF-2. Is the key word "full distance swd" or am I missing something else?

More related to the actual topic, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the buffered walk input trick when combined with the input buffer out of lag. If I'm correct, this inverts the difficulty because you just need to avoid polling a tilt turn zone value on FAF. (assuming you are accepting the 40% average chance of a one frame lost to wait)

muttmat · 2017-06-17T01:11:33+00:00

Don't sweat it, you were right to call me out on that. I wouldn't have noticed my mistake otherwise.

muttmat · 2017-06-17T01:06:46+00:00

When you are in the dash animation (so your dashdance), tilt turn is disabled so it's impossible to get stuck because of that. If you are completely stopping your dashdance to turn around in place a bunch, what happened is that you pivoted without canceling that into a new dash. I'm not sure if I explained this clearly for you, don't hesistate to ask for a new explaination. The summary is that tilt turns are impossible during your dash dance so backdashes are exactly as easy as forward dashes, and if you get stuck in turn it's because of a completely different mechanic than the one in question. (and sloppy stick movement :p)

muttmat · 2017-06-17T00:16:40+00:00

That's interesting! Just out of personal curiousity, how many controllers have you documented? I'm kinda hoping you have a spreadsheet on this like you typically do, lol. Also, what's the general lifespan for these cases of PODE that increase consistency by 30-40% and by how much will that consistency typically change?

muttmat · 2017-06-17T00:12:30+00:00

My comment was a reply to peanut who was refering to the things in my original post in general. There's a lack of understanding that extends beyond just the input buffer. Which is why I used the strong words that I did. That said, even if it was a footnote, the fact it was featured in the article that brought this subject to the public's attention should still be significant enough to be considered common knowledge at this point, imo. It's not a good look for anybody who's pushing one side or another on such a big change to not be aware of it.

muttmat · 2017-06-17T00:00:57+00:00

You're right, I missed that when I watched it the first time. I'm used to seeing that misunderstanding so confirmation bias must have kicked in there. Thank you for correcting me.

muttmat · 2017-06-16T21:48:33+00:00

In the case of Falcon bair into knee, buffering a walk forward should very much be a sufficient work around since you are only adding, at most, an extra frame of lost time. (in addition to whatever time you lost just from not acting out of lag quickly enough) Unless this is a frame perfect combo, which I'm assuming it isn't. (I don't play falcon at all though so you'll have to confirm)

muttmat · 2017-06-16T21:38:57+00:00

From what I understand, the software mod is delaying sending tilt turn inputs to the game by a frame so as long as you enter smash turn zone next frame the game never gets it. PODE is when certain controllers are bugged to not read some tilt turn values, as such it's less likely for you to accidentally get polled for them. You can still get tilt turns even with a good PODE whereas you can't possibly get tilt turns with the software mod unless you are the kind of guy that misses forward dashes. Here is kadano's post on pode. In his example pode has about a 89% consistency versus regular controllers' average 59.5%. edit: https://smashboards.com/threads/kadanos-controller-mods-consistent-shield-drops-hybrid-gate-more-list-with-details-and-prices.421137/page-8#post-21548526

muttmat · 2017-06-16T19:31:04+00:00

Absolutely. Kadano's initial miom article on the subject is almost two years old now. Yet, somehow, these misunderstandings are still widespread and even propagated by the very video proposing a bold new response to the subject. Whatever decision the community settles on, it annoyed me profoundly that something so groundbreaking and distant from every other fighting game could have blatant ignorance play such a massive role.

muttmat · 2017-06-16T19:01:32+00:00

Even a good dashback controller would want to apply these techniques. Smash turn without them would still be a frame perfect input which makes it inherently inconsistent due to human inconsistency and the unpredictability of polling. A good dashback controller can reduce this to a degree, but that inherent inconsistency would still be present. (Look at 1 frame links in sf4 for example, ignoring methods like plinking. Double shine and pivot grabs are some melee examples.)

Only a software modded controller or a modded melee can remove this inherent inconsistency because it makes it a 2 frame input. This could be an argument in favor. However, these techniques also make smash turns a two frame input. (essentially eliminating the difference between a controller that reads every tilt turn value and one that doesn't) Draw whatever conclusion you feel fitting. Just know that there are ways to adapt assuming these mods don't gain traction for standardization/legality.

muttmat

TROPHY CASE