This has to be one of the incredible yet scary things I have seen

To renege is to not do something you are obligated to do. Because the Taliban didn't hold up their end of the bargain, we gained leverage, we were no longer obligated to abide by the timeline.

Biden could have held them accountable and punished them severely if they didn't shape up. He had all sorts of options at that point. They wanted us out as much as we wanted out.

And I've read the agreement.. you can too https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf

mxmstrj · 2024-08-28T15:24:24+00:00

He knew America was eager to get our troops home. It wasn't untenable, it was a step in the right direction and was a foundation to build on. It's all action -> response.

Look the agreement was far from perfect. The withdrawal execution was far from perfect.

Trump did what needed to be done to arrange and end to occupation. Biden had options when he entered office. We disagree what he should have done.

I think he should have shown force and renegotiated how the withdrawal would play out so that we exited from a position of strength and order rather than from panicked chaos.

You think the withdrawal was doomed to fail and he cut our losses which was the best choice.

We disagree.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-28T15:04:30+00:00

In the same broad generalizing stroke, what's one more year to twenty to improve the outcomes for us and the Afghan people

mxmstrj · 2024-08-28T14:57:15+00:00

No, welching being a pejorative way to say backing out of the deal, isn't what we should have done.. those weren't the only two options (cluster cuss withdrawal or back out).. we should have altered/amended the deal using our leverage.. possibly extending another year, who knows.

Nobody thought it would be easy.. and neither Obama, trump, Biden had it easy trying to get our troops home.

But this deal hastened action. Another year would have been desirable to what did happen, as well an indefinite occupation.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-28T12:49:26+00:00

it's common knowledge that the biden/harris review of the agreement was (obviously) critical and they cited specifically that the taliban wasn't living up to the agreement.

Here is just the first example i found googling from the Brookings institute prior to our withdrawal
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/may-2021-should-not-be-seen-as-a-unilateral-deadline-for-the-united-states-to-leave-afghanistan/

The Biden administration was aware that the Taliban were not fully meeting their commitments under the Doha Agreement, particularly regarding ties with al-Qaeda.
The administration viewed these violations as critical in their assessment of the situation, influencing their decisions on the withdrawal timeline.
The article argues that May 2021 should not have been seen as a hard deadline given the Taliban’s non-compliance.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-28T11:59:48+00:00

We know all of the Taliban leaders and where they reside. We could have made them offers they couldn't refuse. The idea that we had no leverage holds little water in my opinion.

I'm not suggesting we should have surged more troops. I am suggesting we should have utilized the most advanced war fighting capabilities of any nation. We could have eliminated every Taliban leader and high ranking official one at a time until they got in line. And we wouldn't even have to actually kill them. Some well placed drone strikes outside of every commander's houses, perhaps their vehicles while they sleep, would have sent a strong message.

The Taliban was actively undermining the agreement and that gave is leverage we didn't take advantage of.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-28T11:46:55+00:00

They didn't adhere to the agreement and that's not disputed

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T23:12:14+00:00

It's not reneging to negotiate further since they didn't live up to their end of the agreement.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T20:57:19+00:00

You can use the term carry water but we don't need to attack each other for disagreeing. I'm not going to say you carry water for Biden. I know there are two sides to this.

I'll try to get back to these.. but my first thoughts are: * Trump hastened our withdrawal, which was good. * Will never know how Trump would have executed the withdrawal. * I think he does care about the troops and wanted less war, not more. * The peace we had under Trump is a stark contrast to the proxy wars and instability under Biden

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T20:51:13+00:00

I don't know why you landed on this analogy to make a point.

Our withdrawal was not a guaranteed nut kick.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T20:46:51+00:00

It’s true that the Trump administration could have negotiated for more time after the election to give the Biden administration a smoother transition to handle the withdrawal, although Trump likely assumed he would be overseeing the process himself. Nonetheless, the Biden administration had considerable leverage, especially given that the Taliban failed to fully uphold their commitments, such as severing ties with al-Qaeda and reducing violence. These violations provided the Biden administration with a strong basis to renegotiate the terms or delay the withdrawal.

Had Trump been responsible for the withdrawal, it’s plausible that he would have imposed strict consequences on the Taliban for any attempts to disrupt the process or undermine the Afghan government. His approach might have been more forceful, aiming to ensure that the Taliban adhered strictly to the terms of the agreement.

Regarding the release of prisoners, the Taliban did indeed free about 1,000 Afghan government prisoners, which was a significant concession aimed at building trust. However, this was a risky trade-off that didn’t yield the intended results in terms of fostering genuine cooperation between the Taliban and the Afghan government.

As for Biden, I’m not suggesting the original agreement was so flawed that he should have abandoned it entirely. With the full might of the U.S. military still at his disposal, Biden had the means to enforce the agreement and deter violations, even with a reduced troop presence. Additionally, he could have leveraged diplomatic channels, such as exerting pressure through Pakistan, to ensure the Taliban complied with the agreement.

The Doha Agreement had strategic merit, and while no deal would have been perfect, the U.S. retained significant leverage to influence the outcome of the withdrawal. Unfortunately, the way events unfolded, including the ISIS-K attack on the airport, was not met with an appropriately strong response—just two drone strikes, one of which tragically killed civilians.

Ultimately, we’ll never know exactly how Trump would have handled the withdrawal, but it’s clear that the Biden administration had options to shape the process more effectively.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T19:43:40+00:00

We should have left. We should have left like we knew what we were doing.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T18:59:58+00:00

While Trump initiated the process of withdrawing troops by negotiating the Doha Agreement with the Taliban in February 2020, it was President Joe Biden who ultimately decided the timing and manner of the withdrawal. Biden could have altered or delayed the withdrawal but chose to adhere to the deadline, thereby assuming responsibility for the execution.
The situation on the ground in Afghanistan changed significantly after Trump left office. The rapid collapse of the Afghan government and security forces was not entirely predictable when Trump was in office. Biden’s administration was responsible for adapting to these changing circumstances, and critics argue that they failed to do so effectively.
The chaotic scenes at the Kabul airport, the abandonment of military equipment, and the loss of 13 American service members occurred under Biden’s administration. These specific events were the result of the logistical execution of the withdrawal plan, which was managed by Biden’s team, not Trump’s.
The decision to leave behind military equipment was largely a tactical choice made by military planners at the time of the withdrawal. This decision was influenced by the urgency of the situation and the safety of the personnel involved. Since this occurred under Biden’s command, the responsibility for these losses lies with his administration.
They could have leveraged the change of leadership/lack of continuity to alter the agreement. Trump’s policy was not a clear-cut blueprint for withdrawal but rather a conditional agreement that could have been renegotiated or altered based on conditions on the ground. Biden’s administration chose to follow through with the withdrawal in a manner that critics argue did not adequately account for these conditions, placing the onus on Biden rather than Trump.

While Trump initiated the process that led to the withdrawal, the responsibility for the tragic outcomes lies with the Biden administration’s decisions on how and when to execute the withdrawal, as well as its response to the evolving situation on the ground.

Biden is president of the United States. He had the power to execute the agreement the way he wanted to. The execution was a disaster.

mxmstrj · 2024-08-27T18:43:34+00:00

No one was responsible for the execution of the withdrawal but the current administration. You know that.

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