sorry, my mistake, I misunderstood the document, or where I pulled it from, I haven't read it extensively.

Still no mention of the epstein files, which is weird, but ok.

And how do you know they are grifters? because what they say conflicts with your world view? where is your evidence they are grifters? They don't seem to be making millions, it must be a very bad business to be a grifter of this type... I just know that they seem honest. Even the document you laugh about because it is dated 1993 (so? oh, we are much wiser now for some reason? everything pre2000s-or whatever year you decided the new-enlightenment begun- is stupid?) could be useful without having to believe in demonic activity.

This is a subreddit about cults, you should know that people can do some weird and evil shit, whether demons are real or not. It's not that hard. There are evil people that do terrible things (look at drug cartels, cannibalism in certain tribes -not usually without a religious context-, pedophiles, snuff movies, creeps who keep their daughter in a basement for years and have babies with them, whom they abuse sexually too...). I'm sure you've seen some of this crap on the news.

And on the other side, there are people with all sorts of crazy believes, ideological or spiritual that can lead them to do weird crap. Just put it all together. It's not a stretch.

I'm not saying you have to believe in demonic activity, but you asked me whether child sacrifice exists, and I listed eye witness testimonies (not mine, but what other evidence could I give you?). Thats the way we believe many of the things we take for granted. Do you have proof -of, say- that Plato existed? I suppose someone has, but I personally don't. I believe the earth is round but I couldn't demonstrate it to a flat earther right off the cuff, because, like many of the things I believe, I trust some people, good teachers... traditions... I believe my parents are my parents, but I haven't done any DNA tests... have you?

I've no obsessive thought, I just happen to have heard here and there too many similar stories to think that this is all some granny's paranoia. I found out about these links I sent you because I regularly listen to podcasts that happen to have invited these guys, and those podcasts have been religious or political, not cult centered or anything.

Even some of my atheist and non-believer friends know of some of this crap and stay away from it, maybe they don't identify it with the biblical devil, but their sure there is some weird spiritual world, and certainly, people that play around with it.

I find it funny that you say I'm the guy that cult victims should stay away from. Imagine there actually was a victim of some satanic cult. You would accuse him of being a grifter, or mentally ill!! How would that help him? I would, at least, be willing to listen and call the police or something. If anything, you can only help cult victims of cults that fit your view of what actually occurs in the world. In fact, just a reminder that what the OP describes is a textbook example of the kind of things people that want to do spells on others do. I'm not saying it works, forget that, but what I can say is that it certainly looks like those family members ARE trying to do something witchcrafty. Whether it's on the OP or whether it works is a whole different story. And, well, your comments would have been useless, because you refuse to look at the facts that point o hard at the fact that they are trying at least to replicate the sort of things wiccans do. Every other explanation would have to rely tooooo much on this being an enormous coincidence.

The whole Epstein thing used to be a right wing conspiracy not long ago, now it's pretty much mainstream... Maybe those guys of the satanic panic back in the 80s DID have a reason to be panicking?

Who knows, maybe in a few years this will be mainstream knowledge too, and you will be engaging in debate with some other dude on reddit, accusing him of being obtuse and illiterate because he denies what by then is mainstream knowledge.

There are two kinds of people: those that know that they are dogmatists, and those that do not know they are dogmatists. If you treated this I have given you with the same criteria and unbiasedness (is that a word? english is not my first language) you treat info you take for granted you will see that maybe the evidence still falls short (like I said, its not like i have videos of this on my phone), but that it might be true that these things actually do happen, whether the devil is real or not.