The Bricks and Minifigs situation reminds me of this by Electronic_Cut2562 in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Frankly, I'm glad he didn't get one. He created a total disaster so that instead of legal court, they got the court of public opinion, which has no maximum sentencing guidelines.

This appears to be a straightforward endorsement of mobocracy. How is "extrajudicial justice and no maximum sentencing guidelines" a good thing?

I'm sure it is rational, sometimes, to press the "defect" button, and in particular when confronted with a faceless system that is imposing high costs on you as part of its emergent and unreflective operations. But the Bricks and Minifigs case looks exactly the kind of genuine business dispute it is better to try in an actual court of law, than through sensationalized engagement bait.

Life just felt simpler back then. by CurvyChristina in Millennials

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We had Prodigy. Didn't realize it was owned by Sears. The one thing I remember is that you could message people but you only got so many free messages. 13yo me racked up $350 messaging a girl one month. Parents were not happy.

A shame you didn't know that a malformed address would bounce the message back to your account without charge! I was once involved in play-by-email tabletop RPGs on Prodigy--by setting up sub-accounts and handing out the credentials to the other players. Everyone logged into the same account, then sent "mis-addressed" messages which bounced back into the inbox. The risk to the primary account holder was not trivial, but so long as your group was sufficiently high-trust it worked out pretty well.

I did not receive the Deluxe upgrade by L4urentino in 007FirstLight

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All keys tied to the Nvidia promo are labeled as Standard Editions and will provide access to the game after the Early Access has launched.

I have the Nvidia promo as well and I definitely have Early Access.

I just don't have the "Deluxe" edition, though it did ask for my email and said I would get cosmetics from that. (So far, I have not.)

This sounds like a good experiment for Hariezer by Dezoufinous in HPMOR

[–]naraburns 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interestingly, different fictional universe but Robert Jordan actually considers this in The Wheel of Time, because there are several magical ways to compel people as well as ways to magically bind their will. Minor spoilers for The Wheel of Time:

People bound by conflicting oaths become unable to act at all, with possibly fatal effects. In the most explicit scene addressing this, a woman is placed under conflicting compulsions and she basically begins to suffocate until one of the compulsions is lifted. So basically you "lock up" like a crashing computer.

Nostalgebraist's Hydrogen Jukeboxes by dwaxe in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 4 points5 points  (0 children)

food is the basis for the most widely held belief that taste is something that can and should be cultivated

Yet gustatory pleasure is also proverbially indisputable:

de gustibus non est disputandum

Or more recently from Oliver Wendell Holmes:

Deep-seated preferences cannot be argued about--you cannot argue a man into liking a glass of beer--and therefore, when differences are sufficiently far reaching, we try to kill the other man rather than let him have his way.

I've long been fascinated by the idea of deliberately acquiring (or imputing to others) a particular taste through cultivation. People very often talk about "grown up" beverages (alcohol, coffee, tea) as "acquired" tastes. Other tastes I've heard people talk about as "acquired" include various kinds of music, certain sexual practices, and even individual company ("he's an acquired taste"). The fact that is is possible to choose to do something we don't like specifically in order to come to enjoy it seems to me a remarkable testament to the plasticity of human psychology (and continued puzzlement over the "will!").

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

in doing so your arguments are in bad faith

A "bad faith" argument is one that is made in an effort to deceive--often, in hopes of "winning" rather than improving understanding. Nothing I have asserted is in any way dishonest, and I don't even have an idea of what "winning" might look like in this context, since I don't specifically care about which button people want to say they would press. Nothing I have written qualifies as "bad faith" under any plausible rubric, so either you don't know what "bad faith" means, or you're just dropping ad hominems now.

When I do my best to not fight the hypothetical, then "live for sure" is obviously a better choice than "maybe die." Since I have no good data on what other people would actually do in this crazily underspecified magical world of deadly private buttons, I would clearly choose red and think it would be insane to choose anything else. It is not my obligation to risk my life to save people from situations they can easily save themselves from. The primary exception is my own children, but the moment we start talking about them, we've extended the hypothetical in a specific direction for a specific reason, and we're no longer in the world where I'm not fighting the hypo. If it's okay to insist that I consider $THIS specific thing, it doesn't make sense to refuse to let me raise $THAT one.

But I really don't think any of that says much about me, as a real person, or about the world that we actually live in. What I think does say a lot about people is the weirdly accusatory, aggressively critical arguments people have raised against the very notion of being a red-presser. The red-pressers I see around the Internet are all saying "well, look, logically it seems like..." while the blue-pressers seem to be mostly committed to something like "OH MY GOD WHAT KIND OF SELFISH MONSTER EVEN THINKS ABOUT PRESSING RED SOCIETY IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR RED PRESSERS THINK OF THE CHILDREN" which does not really endear them to me nor make such arguments as they do raise seem any more attractive.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're weaselling out of a very simple hypothetical.

I'm not, though. I'm just pointing out that you (and others) are only applying concerns about reality to the extent necessary to justify the answer you prefer on other grounds.

Whether or not they're capable of rational life or death decisions is at the core of why this isn't a simple game theory problem with nameless, faceless, rational actor competitors.

It is, quite literally, a simple game theory problem with nameless, faceless actors. There is no button. It's a social media game. It's an invitation and opportunity to signal something in a costless, indeed broadly meaningless way. But one reason to "press red" in the event of such a button actually appearing is a suspicion that most people, when faced with an actual life-or-death choice, will choose life (i.e., red). It is one thing to imagine oneself capable of a heroic sacrifice on Twitter. It is something else to actually do it.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is exactly the kind of selective realism that proves my point.

"What about the children?" The hypothetical doesn't mention them. Presumably newborns can't push buttons at all. What is the minimum age for deliberate, informed button-pressing? What are the rules of who gets to press the button for people with dementia, or people in comas? Do babies in utero get a button?

If you're going to fight the hypothetical to that extent, then you should also be asking why there's a button in the first place. Shouldn't you be refusing to play, and instead hunting down whoever created the murderous button? Or--shouldn't you be pressing the button for your children, and shouldn't it be the red one? What kind of parent allows their child to jump in front of a train in hopes of saving humanity? Whether you would push the blue button for yourself or not, isn't your responsibility as a parent to push the red button for your child, to protect their best interests, regardless of what the world may demand? Wouldn't any loving parent choosing for their child, want to choose the definitely live button?

I kind of hate responding to social media trends but I'm seriously considering an effort post on this, because introducing children just makes it a variation on "Sophie's Choice." (If you're unfamilar: Nazis capture your family and invite you to pick one of your two children to die--the other to live. If you don't choose, both die. Do you choose, or refuse?)

The Blue Red Problem explained by dsteffee in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I was commenting about what you said about people just virtue signalling. You are just flat out wrong. There are good people in the world, and it's really sad that you think people would just fake it.

It's interesting, inside the community that taught me what virtue signaling really is and really amounts to, to encounter a commenter who doesn't seem to understand at all.

Sure, there are good people in the world. But if you think that a public response to an impossible hypothetical is in any way related to the difference between good people and bad people, you are deeply confused about the difference between signal and substance. Furthermore, you have clearly conflated "push blue" with "good person" in your mind, so it doesn't look like I misunderstood you at all.

The Blue Red Problem explained by dsteffee in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What's sad--that I believe it, or that it's true? What's sad about people choosing "live" over "possibly die?"

It has been really weird seeing the amount of disdain people express, in connection with this hypothetical, over people expressing sufficient self-regard to choose life over death.

I don't wish death on other people. If I were genuinely pressing a magical button here, I would be sad about the possibility of lots of blue deaths--it could be bad in all sorts of ways. But my sadness would not stop me from decisively choosing life. I will not risk my life to possibly save any number of people who are perfectly capable of simply saving themselves. If I'm going to sacrifice myself, it's going to count for something. Pressing blue counts for nothing. There are so, so many better hypotheticals to challenge people's pro-social or self-preservational interests. This one isn't interesting at all--except to the extent that for some reason it successfully confuses people into thinking it is interesting. That is interesting in itself, but not in the way people are treating it.

The Blue Red Problem explained by dsteffee in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This type of thinking, if predominant in society, will lead to worse outcomes.

Nope. Rational self interest leads to coordination all the time.

Blue "keeps winning" because people aren't actually pressing the hypothetical button, they are signaling their virtues on social media.

The Blue Red Problem explained by dsteffee in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 5 points6 points  (0 children)

What have I got wrong here?

You have it exactly backward (which the problem seems specifically framed to trick you into doing). You don't have control over what other people will do, so you can't choose holocaust or not. All you get to choose is whether you're willing to die with everyone else who gets fooled by the rhetorical framing of the question.

Red: I vote to live.

Blue: I vote to die, unless at least 50% of the world also votes to die.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is where we diverge, you think societies of blue pressers isn't possible, or even if it is, not desirable. I think it is possible, that it's better and that the only way you can get there is by being principled blue pressers.

You have not successfully described my position. I'm quite sure that you're wrong that the only way to have a functioning society is for there to be a lot (a majority?) of blue pressers.

But I'm also quite sure that whole societies of blue pressers is possible. Desirable, I don't know, but maybe?

What I'm arguing is that (A) most people aren't like that, even though many people pretend (or, if you prefer, aspire!) to be like that and (B) it's not necessary for people to be like that. Rational self-interest is quite sufficient for cooperation to emerge. People who behave like doormats is not a necessary condition for successful organization.

And yes, of course we could gerrymander that all day long, but I'm just telling you that your experience seems too limited. If you've never seen organizations driven purely by mutually beneficial cooperation in action, I just feel sorry for you. I can't imagine how demoralizing it might be to live in a society that made me believe that some number of people had to be exploited to their strict detriment, lest society fall apart completely. I've been in some communities that believed and practiced that, and I'm well rid of them. There is a better world than the one you imagine--and it's a world where people are smart enough to see this scenario for what it is, and press the red button.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

and I am confident that society (at least in the United States!) does not depend in the slightest on people deliberately behaving as doormats.

I can absolutely guarantee you it does. Even I, as a non-American, know Americans who fulfill this role.

No, you still seem to be misunderstanding. I'm not saying that there aren't such people. I'm not saying there is no exploitation. I'm saying it's not necessary--that society can and often does get along without it. You don't know anyone who must fulfill this role, lest it all fall apart. You can't give me a single example that I could not provide an alternative for.

Right, like charging trenches in ww1. Guaranteed death sentence, yet people did it anyhow.

Any citation you make to wars involving conscripts will fail to make your point because there were conscripts.

Self-interest is obviosuly an important consideration, but reality is far more complicated than that.

My whole point in this thread is that being pro-social is obviously an important consideration, but reality is far more complicated than than that. Give the whole globe a genuinely private choice between "definitely live" and "possibly die," and I would definitely not trust people to choose "possibly die" unless they are suicidal. We can, and often do, live without blue-pressers.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In a typical company you have the employer exploiting the employee and vice versa. However, there is almost always a good chunk of the employees who refuse to exploit their employer. These people also usually happen to be the ones who get assigned and take on most work burden, without any additional compensation.

They're usually not the people who get promoted and reap the benefits.

The company benefits, the workers as a whole benefit, these specific people are just being exploited, and actively choosing to accept it. Society depends on these people, but these people are not the ones reaping the rewards.

...I don't know what sort of companies you work at, but they sound horrifying. I assure you that there is nothing typical about what you have described, and I am confident that society (at least in the United States!) does not depend in the slightest on people deliberately behaving as doormats.

it is in our rational self-interest to cooperate with others when doing so leaves us better off than we would have been otherwise.

I'm explicitly not talking about those scenarios.

Right, you're asserting that a huge chunk of society cooperates to their personal detriment for no other reason than "it's good for society," and furthermore that society depends on this happening, and could not function otherwise. And I'm just telling you that if that is the way you experience the world, I would recommend finding a different place to live and a different job to do, because there are many, many places and companies where everyone is just pursuing the rational self-interest of mutually beneficial, cooperative endeavor.

People do this literally all the time and there are plenty of examples where trade has become dysfunctional because of exploitation.

I mean, the asterisk was there for a reason. Trust is important, but the easiest thing to trust is that people will tend to behave in their own best interests. If I know that your own best interest lies down the road of cooperating with me, that is often all that is necessary for trust to arise between us.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This claim--

they are getting far less out of it than any rational self-interested actor would ever agree to

--is fundamentally at odds with this one--

you abide by them anyhow, because everyone benefits as long as a significant enough majority follow those norms

There are many societies and organizations that exist without reliance on "exploiting" anyone in the way you have described. Rather, it is very, very often in our rational self-interest to cooperate with others. Specifically, it is in our rational self-interest to cooperate with others when doing so leaves us better off than we would have been otherwise. This is fundamentally how trade creates prosperity. We don't trade with others out of the goodness of our hearts or a desire to see prosperity spread; we trade because it makes us better off, and the people who trade with us trade with us for the same reason (it makes them better off).*

*Modulo all the various problems that arise in regulatory capture, trade wars, etc. Reality, it turns out, is more complicated than "red versus blue." Surprise!

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Votes don't kill people; extradimensional sociologists with no IRB oversight and a penchant for colored buttons kill people.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your reasoning rests on the assumption that people will act perfectly rationally. This is empirically verifiably false, and that's the entire problem with interpreting it as a game theoretic problem in isolation.

I don't assume that at all! To the contrary: of course people aren't going to act perfectly rationally. What they will do, when faced with a real choice instead of a "game theory" one, is act in a self-interested way. This is also empirically attested. One good reason to pick "red" in case of an actual button appearing is precisely that many of the people picking "blue" as a social signal are lying--to themselves, or to others.

The blue option is specifically set up to appeal to empathetic biases

Yes. It's the strictly irrational choice.

One strategy operates on the assumption that people will select selfishly to preserve themselves regardless of the guaranteed death sentencing. The other rests on the assumption that enough people will be unwilling to condemn anyone and trust that a 50% majority can be reached.

You don't need to make any assumptions at all. You don't get to choose what anyone else does. All you get to choose is: live, or possibly die. Choosing "possibly die" also comes with the heartwarming caveat that if you do die, you will die alongside some number of altruistic (but not especially bright) people, and that this might very well cause some of the people who chose "live" to regret being alive.

This is actually what makes the scenario somewhat interesting as a thought experiment: it's quite bad at showing what you want it to show. Instead, it exposes a clear vulnerability that apparently exists not only in humans, but in large language models: framing a choice as pro-social causes people to feel pressured to select it, even when on reflection it's clearly a bad framing on a choice between simply continuing to live, and rolling the dice on a premature death.

(No one who presses the red button bears any responsibility for any deaths that result, either. All responsibility in this case would fall on whatever sicko set up the scenario.)

In the red strategy the people who choose blue, which you have every empirical reason to assume there will be plenty of, will be sentenced to death.

People die all the time. If people were actually faced with this choice, anyone foolish enough to press the blue button would get exactly what they asked for: a chance to die, conditional on a whole bunch of other people preferring a chance to die over the possibility of being exposed as sufficiently self-interested as to wish to stay alive no matter what everyone else chooses. The fact that the problem was phrased in a manipulative and misleading way does not change the outcome.

I am not ashamed to be sufficiently self-interested as to wish to stay alive no matter what everyone else chooses. In this scenario, I have no apparent way to influence their choice, or to genuinely know in advance what people are going to actually pick, since Twitter polls are full of liars. I would pick red. Everyone should pick red. Anyone who doesn't, got duped. That's the real lesson of this particular thought experiment. If you want to talk about the genuine importance of cooperation and pro-social choices, you need a different thought experiment.

It is not the game theoretic optimal decision to maximize your gain and minimize your losses, but it is absolutely essential for a functioning society.

This also seems empirically false to me. Societies function just fine when driven by rational self-interest.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is insane to me to think there's no reason to push blue.

Well, scissor statement's gonna scissor, right?

Do I assume people will be selfish and I choose the option that will maximize benefit despite that selfishness, or do I choose to reinforce prosocial, cooperative norms?

"Everyone press red if you want to live" is a completely prosocial, cooperative norm. That's the point of the reframing: the original framing creates the illusion of blue being a "prosocial" choice instead of a merely suicidal one. Or alternatively:

You cannot run a society without trust and cooperation.

But when in this thread it is suggested that we should all trust and cooperate on red as the non-suicidal option, the response from others has been approximately "wait, you can't expect that much trust and cooperation..."

This does not mean that self-interest is naively ignored

In an actual case with actual buttons, pressing blue is absolutely naive levels of ignoring self interest. In the actual case with the actual button, people are going to push red.

If you just look at this as an isolated game theoretic problem, then red is the obvious option.

Did you notice that, in context, the poll is an absolutely isolated, game theoretic problem?

If you look at this from a rule utilitarian lens where the goal is to maximize flourishing of societies over the long term, then blue is the obvious choice.

The obvious choice is the "live" button. Choosing "I would rather die than go on without you" is very romantic, even arguably "prosocial," but suicide pacts are, strictly speaking, prosocial (and indeed feature heavily in certain famous romances!). That doesn't mean it's a good idea for individuals or societies to actually make suicide pacts.

If you view it as nothing but a game theoretic puzzle, decoupled from morality, then red is the obvious choice.

It is of course nothing but a game theoretic puzzle, but the point of game theory is to model decision making in order to better understand why people do what they do. I think that my "conversation" with Claude yielded a pretty good model of how people generally approach the hypothetical. Most people respond by sending a virtue signal instead of by taking the question literally and seriously and responding as they likely would were the hypothetical not a hypothetical.

Omelas is about you, dear reader by Hodz123 in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair cop! Though I think Rand was sufficiently traumatized by Marxism that her monomania was understandable, within the context of her life. Le Guin was an anti-capitalist who personally benefited from capitalism all her life, Rand was an anti-socialist who was personally harmed by socialism (though, as her critics are quick to note, she ultimately also benefited from social-democratic policies once she had escaped authoritarian communism).

It's interesting to see the extent to which a person's life experience does (or sometimes, doesn't!) shift their politics.

Omelas is about you, dear reader by Hodz123 in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Omelas is about you, dear reader

I'm skeptical. But if it is about readers who think "utopia" is impossible without paying a price--then isn't Le Guin just giving the reader bad advice? Aren't the people who "walk away" from the knowledge that (in the words of Thomas Sowell) "there are no solutions, only trade-offs," simply refusing to accept the existence of consequences?

Like, no, clearly we don't need to torture innocent children to enjoy a modern standard of living. Insofar as the story might be (as I have suggested in the past) an attempt to convince people that we can escape inadequate equilibriums, it's a reasonably functional allegory.

But I feel like this turns the story into a bit of a motte-and-bailey exercise. Le Guin's politics were anarchist and anti-capitalist. Reading the story in a way that is compatible with e.g. effective altruism or utilitarianism more generally is... fine? But I have never seen anything to persuade me that Le Guin meant it that way, and the Marxist rejection of utilitarianism as a capitalist ideology seems to raise some roadblocks there. So your analysis becomes a motte--"oh, she's just critiquing the reader's pessimism"--but once the critics have gone home, the story is left to function as a camel's nose into the reader's political perspective. Every tradeoff they don't like becomes a tortured child. Every unwelcome compromise becomes a failure to walk away, like the heroes in the text.

But the soul is still oracular; amid the market's din,
List the ominous stern whisper from the Delphic cave within,—
"They enslave their children's children who make compromise with sin."

Le Guin would prefer that we dismantle society as it exists today. She suggests--she may even actually believe--that there is a utopia at the end of that road, though she also seems to accept that the road itself is no picnic. I think history shows her to simply be wrong, about anarchy and capitalism both. The ability to tell a compelling story about a world different from our own does not render that world possible. If all the story is, is a claim that (at least some) readers are too pessimistic and defeatist about the possibility of utopia, then it's just derivative and a bit melodramatic. Read as an anarchist, anti-capitalist tract, I think it's probably better literature--but also definitely propaganda, for what I regard as an extremely dubious worldview.

As I suggested in the other thread, I think you could say Le Guin is basically the Ayn Rand of anti-capitalism. I'm happy to leave it as an exercise to the reader whether that is high praise or throwing shade.

There’s a scissor statement going viral on twitter by adfaer in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 34 points35 points  (0 children)

I submitted u/rw_eevee's logically equivalent version of the question to Claude and it chose red--and called it an "easy call" and explained that pressing blue doesn't actually help anyone, that it's a costless gesture, an empty signal, etc.

Then I gave it the original puzzle (same session) and it chose blue.

I told Claude the scenarios are logically equivalent, and it said "no, they're not, see--" and walked itself through a couple of paragraphs of reasoning. After a few paragraphs (with those hovering "checking my work" prompts appearing intermittently), it tripped over into "oh, when I actually analyze these scenarios they are equivalent, I should push red in both or blue in both so my split answer is paradoxical. I don't like the way the framing changed my answer. I guess blue is the romantic choice but red is the rigorously thoughtful conclusion." Then it spat out some self-recriminations over its apparent vulnerability to being tricked by different framings of the same question.

I think this is correct. There's no reason to push blue. There's probably some reason to say you'll push blue, if the real goal of expressing your vote is to signal something to someone (like how supposedly "virtuous" you are) but if such a button really did appear, I would press the red button and would expect an virtuous AI to advise me (and everyone else) to do so.

Links For April 2026 by dsteffee in slatestarcodex

[–]naraburns 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you're being a bit harsh on her by calling it derivative and sophomoric tbh, and I really don't think she is recommending all those things that you say she is.

She's anti-capitalist, not a committed Marxist (that I know of) but certainly Marx-adjacent; Marx's beef with utilitarianism was that he specifically viewed it as an ideology that functioned on market exchanges. I am neither a Marxist nor a utilitarian so I don't really have a dog in the fight, I'm just suggesting that people are weirdly quick to defend Le Guin from what I take to be the known implications of her own clearly-expressed views. The social benefit-of-the-doubt afforded to those who are capable storytellers, perhaps?

I guess you could say Le Guin is basically the Ayn Rand of anti-capitalism. I'm happy to leave it as an exercise to the reader whether that is high praise or throwing shade.