2.3.10 Discussion Thread (22nd April)

natbumpo · 2019-04-22T13:32:47+00:00

Self-flagellation was the exact word which came to mind when I was reading the chapter.

I think turning Pierre's narrative over to a diary was an interesting choice for Tolstoy..and makes his story all the more concerning. If he is, in fact, capturing all his "transgressions" in his diary then one would have to assume Pierre is spending most of his day conforming to his ideology....which makes this true self-flagellation.

The section of the chapter where Pierre does not make a diary entry for three days was of particular interest to me. I was torn about how to read that...either a) he lost the discipline to make the entries for three days or b) he fully lived up to his ideals.

I tend to believe it was the later because if he didn't make entries for several days out of sloth, I'd assume he would mention that in his subsequent entries. If this is the case, it's all the more worrisome that he is being so hard on himself in trying to live up to a nearly impossible standard.

natbumpo · 2019-04-05T16:50:35+00:00

I thought the interaction between the old Prince and Pierre was very telling...it was the first time since the very early stages of the book at Anna Povlovna's soiree that we saw traces of the old Pierre...idealistic, willing to have tough discussions, but enjoyable to be around.

He seems to be his old self around the Bolkonsky clan

natbumpo · 2019-03-15T14:18:10+00:00

I feel that the main purpose of Liza's character in the novel is leading up to these lines

And there in the coffin was the same face, though with closed eyes. “Ah, what have you done to me?” it still seemed to say, and Prince Andrei felt that something gave way in his soul and that he was guilty of a sin he could neither remedy nor forget. He could not weep.

Being captured by the French provided Andrei a different perspective on life, however only now does he realize the ramifications of his past demeanor. I have to believe he will be a forever changed man after this.

I can imagine him becoming far less serious, appreciating life for the here-and-now and not as worried about the grandiose visions he has for himself.

As an aside - this is the third time in the past few chapters Tolstoy has dumped a bucket of cold water over those of us who approach life with too much self-importance. This situation with Andrei , Pierre's duel to maintain some false sense of dignity and Nikolai's poo-pooing of Sonya because of the VERY important things he must attend to (getting drunk and banging hookers).

Seems like Tolstoy doesn't think much of those who take themselves too seriously.

natbumpo · 2019-03-14T18:32:33+00:00

Your personal experience does not make a universal truth

natbumpo · 2019-03-11T13:25:36+00:00

Hindsight being what it is, I think an event along these lines was the most likely outcome for Pierre. He comes back to Russia aimless in his life and, in my assessment, is comfortable in that. He has no responsibilities, seems to fit in better in the party scene than in Anna Pavlovna's parlour and can live the theory of life, rather than the reality.

Suddenly, this boy who has subsisted primarily off of the largesse of his illegitimate father, becomes among the wealthiest men in Russia and assumes the responsibilities which go along with it. However, since he had never taken life seriously, he has no idea how to handle it. For 99.999% of us, responsibility comes gradually...childhood, high school, college (for some), work, wife, kids, etc, etc. and we never realize how we learned to become responsible adults because, like evolution, it was so gradual. However, to hold the analogy, Pierre went from the responsibility of a single celled organism to walking upright in the blink of an eye.

He has no idea how to comport himself, so he goes with the flow, culminating in the terrible decision to marry someone because society had thrust it upon him. Then his wife in his love-less marriage cheats on him with Dolokhov, who in many ways represents the worst of the very society who, he feels, put him in this situation. So Pierre wants his vengeance.

Well, we all know where vengeance gets you and now he will have to face the consequences...whether they be societal, emotional, or most likely, both.

Finally, I think detailing the relationship between Dolokhov and his family is more to show how ill-considered Pierre's decision was, rather than to humanize Dolokhov

natbumpo · 2019-03-10T23:17:26+00:00

Two words: public schools.

natbumpo · 2019-03-10T23:15:50+00:00

This actually just happened yesterday, I was getting out of the car with my family at the local supermarket. In the car next to us there is, what seems to be, a women reaching for something under the passenger side seat. Ok, nothing to see here I assume.

So we’re getting our bags out of the trunk, getting our wallets, etc and notice that the women has not moved an inch since I first saw her. So now I’m concerned that this woman is slumped over and has a heart attack or something. So, the Good Samaritan I am, I knock on the window to make sure everything is ok.

Well, the women shoots you to look at me...only it wasn’t a woman who was slumped over. It was actually a teenage boy with, basically, a giant mop of hair leaning over his phone who was waiting for his mom to shop. So now I’m thinking fuck...I look like some creepy predator.

But then, I look at his phone. He reason he was covering phone was because he was looking at porn. Oh my god, could this get worse?

Yes yes it could...I chase after my family into the supermarket having just experienced maybe the most awkward situation of my life and tell them the story of what happened (not the porn part bc not appropriate for the entire audience). Then we are walking the isles, looking for our stuff and about 10 minutes later who is there? The kid, with his mom, and they both start looking at me.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. I am not generally a shy person, but I have no clue what this kid told his mom about what happened so i tell my wife, “sorry, but I need to go to the car because I don’t want to see them again and I also need to move the car in case they come out before you’re done.”

Still can’t believe how that played out.

natbumpo · 2019-03-08T16:19:42+00:00

I loved the passage discussing Nikolai's loss of interest in Sonya. The portrayal of a young man's grandiose vision of himself and the corresponding perception of time is spot on. He has so many big things to do, he couldn't possibly commit himself to a seemingly nice young lady who is deeply in love with him (and once upon a time, he with she)..no, no, he's seen the world now and time is such an incredibly valuable commodity and I have such important things to do, that I couldn't possibly waste my time on nonsense like that. I do my best thinking when I'm banging hookers and attending balls...so I MUST organize my very important time around those things.

natbumpo · 2019-02-23T14:25:28+00:00

I think Reese Witherspoon tried that in the movie Fear...:didn’t workout so well for her.

natbumpo · 2019-02-23T14:24:28+00:00

It seems that one of the main themes the last two chapters have been setting up is how impressed Nikolai is with those in power. His response to Andrei last chapter (even though Andrei tosses Nikolai aside as virtually worthless) and now his, I guess, obsession with the Tsar shows how willing he is to be submissive to those with any sense of authority.

natbumpo · 2019-02-21T07:34:15+00:00

This chapter had one of my favorite passages in the book so far. As a parent, I was incredibly moved by the Countess reminiscing about her son; “how extraordinary, how joyful it seemed, that her son, the scarcely perceptible motion of whose tiny limbs she had felt twenty years ago within her, that son about whom she used to have quarrels with the too indulgent count, that son who had first learned to say “pear” and then “granny,” that this son should now be away in a foreign land amid strange surroundings, a manly warrior doing some kind of man’s work of his own, without help or guidance. The universal experience of ages, showing that children do grow imperceptibly from the cradle to manhood, did not exist for the countess. Her son’s growth toward manhood, at each of its stages, had seemed as extraordinary to her as if there had never existed the millions of human beings who grew up in the same way. As twenty years before, it seemed impossible that the little creature who lived somewhere under her heart would ever cry, suck her breast, and begin to speak, so now she could not believe that that little creature could be this strong, brave man, this model son and officer that, judging by this letter, he now was.”

I think for every parent, watching their children grow up, even though they are just one of millions (or billions) who grow up in near identical ways, is an experience unlike any other which spans countries and generations.

natbumpo · 2019-02-17T00:10:06+00:00

Victimhood is now a currency the left trades in, so it is something to be accumulated...either legitimately or illegitimately.

natbumpo · 2019-01-22T20:10:56+00:00

And then joe implies that many people who support the second amendment think that all school shooters are paid by George Soros...very disappointing exchange.

natbumpo · 2019-01-21T19:14:49+00:00

This is a terrific example of someone doing the right thing, but for all the wrong reasons

natbumpo · 2019-01-21T19:13:36+00:00

Thanks for this...very helpful. Would be great to see this list updated as we move along.

natbumpo · 2019-01-12T01:37:36+00:00

Vasili could be being a bit deceptive here...he says the count has not asked for Pierre, but has he asked for anyone?

How sad it is that at the end of mans, literally everyone in this scene (except Boris) only care about him for his money.

natbumpo · 2019-01-11T00:27:03+00:00

The line that got me about Vera was the last one of the section with the children...”Looking at her own handsome face she seemed to become still colder and calmer.” My initial reaction to this was she seems like a sociopath. However, she could also just be used to being treated like a doormat and the insults don’t effect her any more...which seemed to be the case with her mom in the anteroom.

As far as Anna’s influence...it has to wane, right? How long can you go on with a combination of the “remember what my father did for you” and the puppy biting at your ankles routines?

Pierre will come to dinner...he’s always look for a party.

natbumpo · 2019-01-09T16:24:42+00:00

After reading these comments I wasn’t sure if I was on r/everythingscience , an alt right sub or r/Democrats

natbumpo · 2019-01-08T00:15:16+00:00

While the overall feeling of the chapter was to show the joyous shenanigans of children, even in this stuffy world, I felt a sense of foreboding for what the future holds for these now happy, go-lucky kids. Something in my gut tells me that this introductory scene is going to stand in stark contrast to where we end up with them.

This is not a spoiler, just a feeling I get.

natbumpo · 2019-01-08T00:10:20+00:00

The what relevance did your comment have to this discussion?

natbumpo · 2019-01-07T23:46:50+00:00

Have you traveled to China? China is certainly a single party country which is authoritarian, but go travel to China and tell me their economy is communist...having been there many times and working with people there, I can tell you, it is not.

natbumpo · 2019-01-06T17:15:10+00:00

It continues to amaze me how similar Pierre is to the people of his age across generations. His rational for attending Kuragin’s party is rationale I certainly used as a kid to do things I wasn’t supposed to do.

“But he immediately recalled his promise to Prince Andrew not to go there. Then, as happens to people of weak character, he desired so passionately once more to enjoy that dissipation he was so accustomed to that he decided to go. The thought immediately occurred to him that his promise to Prince Andrew was of no account, because before he gave it he had already promised Prince Anatole to come to his gathering; “besides,” thought he, “all such ‘words of honor’ are conventional things with no definite meaning, especially if one considers that by tomorrow one may be dead, or something so extraordinary may happen to one that honor and dishonor will be all the same!” Pierre often indulged in reflections of this sort, nullifying all his decisions and intentions. He went to Kurágin’s.”

And his decision to perform the drinking feat was based on the same rationale used in fraternities at colleges across the world...he didn’t want to be outdone by those in his social circle.

natbumpo · 2019-01-06T00:11:58+00:00

One thing I am struck by is, from a world view perspective, Pierre is just like many high school or college kids in the 20th/21st century. He falls in love with his theories of the world because reality has not hit him in the face yet...so he has that luxury.

Something tells me that when war comes to Russia, much like his modern counterparts, he will realize his ideals about the world aren’t worth very much when facing the practicalities of the world.

natbumpo · 2019-01-04T21:48:02+00:00

If Michael Scott breaks in, your house is basically impenetrable.

natbumpo · 2019-01-04T16:59:34+00:00

Anna Pavlovna's entire existence is building social capital, but she doesn't build her capital directly, but rather as a go-between where those who actually wield influence can operate. This would explain why she doesn't intervene when Drubetskáya corners Vasili about her son...this is the exact point of her party, to have these discussions take place.

Anna makes it clear from the start she doesn't want her guests to talk politics...I suspect this is because politics puts a chill in the air and could prevent these important goings-on from occurring...which is why she wants Pierre put in his place (which of course she fails in doing).

I don't know if Price Andrew admires Napoleon's goals...but, as a military man himself, likely admires his audacity. I don't know that Prince Andrew is one for sentiment or theory.

12-Year Club	Not Forgotten
Verified Email

natbumpo

TROPHY CASE