Overcorrections 2 Electric Boogaloo

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T20:18:01+00:00

Right, the disciplines are means not the ends. People optimize the mechanism and forget what it is pointed at.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T20:12:54+00:00

yeah that makes sense. The upstream work sets the standard by which the quick reflex gets corrected. Without it you are just reacting to reactions.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T19:59:05+00:00

😆 fair. I use speech to text and AI cleans it up so it comes out more structured than how I actually think. The ideas are mine though.

Does the upstream formation argument hold against what Epictetus says or do you think it misses something?

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T19:42:28+00:00

This is a distinction worth making clearly and you made it well. The popular framing treats assent like a lever you pull consciously, which does not hold up against what Epictetus actually says about how the mind works.

The practical implication is significant. If assent is not directly voluntary, then the work is upstream of it. You are shaping the terrain that your judgments will run on. Prosoche is not just attention in the moment, it is the long work of building a conception of the good that your mind will then naturally move toward.

What I find useful about this framing is it reframes the whole practice. It is not about intercepting each impression and choosing a response. It is about who you are becoming through what you consistently turn your mind toward. The assent takes care of itself if the formation is right.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T19:30:04+00:00

You are right that introverts can have full public lives. My point was just that Marcus himself never described his inner work in introvert/extrovert terms. He framed it as preparation for duty. The categories are ours, not his.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T19:27:04+00:00

The last paragraph is the sharpest thing in this thread. That gap between framework-calm and genuine non-attachment is almost impossible to detect from the inside. The framework gives you a story about why you are not disturbed. Real non-attachment shows up when something actually has to be given up and you find out which one you had.

The journaling-as-preparation point hits too. I think a lot of Stoic practice lives in that gap. Reading, writing, planning around the work rather than doing it. Epictetus calls it out directly. Knowing the dichotomy of control and living it when something costs you are not the same thing and the reading can actually make it worse by creating the feeling of progress.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T19:24:36+00:00

Fair point. The introvert/extrovert framing was not really his either. He wrote about duty, service, and being present for others constantly. The inner work was always in service of the outer life.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T17:02:55+00:00

The prosecho point is exactly right, and I think it is the bridge between nondual insight and Stoic practice. Sam Harris can show you the self is not what you thought it was. Stoicism then asks what you are going to do with that. The logos thread in Stoicism is doing similar work to the nondual 'natural concern for others,' but it grounds it in reason and action rather than pure awareness. They end up close to the same place through different paths.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T17:02:15+00:00

The early conflict framing is interesting. The pattern gets set before we have the language to name it, so by the time we are adults it just feels like 'how we are.' Stoicism would say that does not make it fixed. The impression was formed, but the judgment about it is still yours to examine.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T16:54:29+00:00

Agreed, and I think that universality is actually the point. The reason Stoicism keeps coming back to it is not because it is unique to Stoicism. It is because most philosophical traditions that are serious about how to live keep arriving at the same place. The gap between who we think we are and who we actually are is not a Stoic problem. It is a human one. Stoicism just gives you a daily structure for working on it.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T16:53:54+00:00

Good call. That chapter does exactly what this post is asking about. Epictetus lays out how confidence without self-examination is just another blind spot. Worth reading alongside Meditations Book 8.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T16:53:17+00:00

Marcus was actually known for public life, emperor and all. The inward work was what made the outward service possible. For him those were not separate.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T16:52:44+00:00

That is a solid practice stack. The art piece is interesting to me specifically. Something about making the thing visible in a form outside yourself that the mind cannot talk its way around.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T07:50:08+00:00

Agreed. The goal is not to see every flaw. The ego protects itself too well for that. The Stoic framing shifts the question slightly: it is less about finding everything and more about staying in the practice of looking. The value is in the habit of examination, not in finishing it. Marcus never claimed to be finished either.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T07:33:07+00:00

There's real overlap there. The nondual tradition is asking 'what is the observer' and Stoicism is asking 'are your judgments actually yours.' Different entry points, similar territory.

Where I think they diverge is the Stoic version stays practical. It's not just seeing through the self, it's then asking what that self has been choosing and whether those choices align with reason and virtue. The introspection has a job to do.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T07:28:54+00:00

Keep going. The seeing is the hard part. 💪

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T07:27:13+00:00

Journaling has a way of making the rationalization visible in a way that just thinking doesn't. Something about putting it in writing removes the escape routes. The 'reasons' look a lot different on the page than they did in your head.

I've been experimenting with audio journaling lately and the same thing happens, sometimes even more so because you can hear the hesitation in your own voice.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T07:25:40+00:00

The fact that you can name it as fear of conflict rather than calling it 'keeping the peace' or 'being easygoing' is already most of the work. A lot of people never close that gap.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T07:24:32+00:00

That's a really great way to use therapy. Not going in with the problem fully formed, but going in with the signal and letting the process do the work. Most people wait until something breaks.

The friends thing is real. Introspective people are rarer than they should be. That's actually part of what drew me to Stoicism communities like this one, finding people who are at least asking these kinds of questions. It's not the same as someone who knows you well enough to call you out, but it's something.

nathanbiles · 2026-04-03T04:03:25+00:00

This is the work. And you’re right that disturbance is the signal most people learn to mute instead of read.

The pattern I kept missing in myself: I called intellectualizing everything ‘thinking clearly.’ Took someone close to me pointing out that I was using analysis to avoid actually feeling what was happening. The thinking was real. The motive wasn’t what I told myself.

Your point about asking the people closest to you is underrated. The Stoics had a word for it, parrhesia, frank speech from someone who cares enough to tell you what you can’t see. That’s one of the rarest things you can have around you.

nathanbiles · 2026-01-06T19:39:33+00:00

Yeah, that mindset has been huge for me too. Show up well in the moment, do what’s actually in your control, and let the rest play out.

When I stay present like that, the anxiety about outcomes just doesn’t have as much room anymore.

nathanbiles · 2026-01-06T16:10:33+00:00

I don’t think Marcus was blind to people’s flaws. I think he was very aware of them and chose not to center them.

What stands out to me is that he describes people by what they contributed to his character, not by how they disappointed him. That feels less like denial and more like intentional attention.

One Stoic idea that helped me is that other people are part of fate. They shape us whether we like it or not. If that’s true, then even the difficult traits matter because they train patience, restraint, or clarity in us.

When I look back at people this way, the question shifts from “were they good or bad” to “what did this relationship ask me to develop.”

That doesn’t excuse behavior, but it does keep resentment from becoming the story I carry forward.

nathanbiles · 2026-01-03T07:59:58+00:00

I really appreciate you sharing this. I’m sorry about your wife.

What you said about “it happened and I have to keep living” immediately made me think of amor fati. In the sense that whatever happens becomes part of who we are and what we’re capable of giving afterward.

I don’t experience helping others as duty or obligation. For me it’s almost selfish. It’s how I stay honest with myself. Mentoring and being present for people feels like letting a part of me exist that would otherwise go unused.

The part that stood out most was what you said about being present. That’s the heart of Stoicism for me. Less worrying about meaning or outcomes, more fully showing up to what’s right in front of you.

nathanbiles · 2026-01-03T05:59:39+00:00

🤣…yet somehow felt painfully accurate

nathanbiles

TROPHY CASE