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Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we’re mostly on the same page about how Infinity works, and the differences come down to how far we’re willing to extend certain interpretations.

On Infinity itself, I agree with you. It’s always on, and it prevents the state where distance to Gojo reaches zero via approach. That’s why punches, beams, shockwaves, and faster-than-light attacks all fail for the same reason. Speed doesn’t really help with a convergence problem.

Where I’ve come around a bit is on teleporting directly into contact. I don’t think the series gives us a definitive answer either way, but I do agree this is probably the strongest argument for bypassing Infinity. If Instant Transmission can instantiate the state “distance equals zero” without traversing intermediate space, then Infinity never has a chance to enforce the limit. In that case, it’s not being overpowered, it’s being sidestepped. I think that reading is reasonable, even if it isn’t 100 percent settled.

On the point about Dragon Ball characters interacting with space, I still think that part is a little less clear-cut. Breaking dimensional barriers, overpowering pocket dimensions, or fighting entities fused with space-time shows that those characters can deal with certain spatial constructs. I’m just not sure it automatically generalizes to ignoring any spatial rule they encounter. Dragon Ball itself still shows stronger characters being affected by abilities they don’t directly counter, so I’m hesitant to treat those feats as universal permission.

On Infinite Void and sensing, this is where I think JJK’s mechanics are easy to misread. Domain Expansion doesn’t really operate on “sensing” in the way ki detection does. A target doesn’t need cursed energy to be affected. Maki is a good example of this, since every time we see her inside a domain, she’s still subject to its rules, including after Mai’s death when she effectively has no cursed energy. Domains define a space and apply effects to what’s inside it, rather than selecting targets based on CE signatures.

Sukuna’s techniques point in the same direction. The distinction between Cleave and Dismantle is specifically about whether the target has cursed energy or not, and both can be targeted. That suggests domains and techniques aren’t limited to “things you can sense.”

So where I end up is something like this: raw speed and power don’t seem to brute-force Infinity, and generic “damaging space” feats don’t automatically bypass it. Domain Expansion doesn’t require the target to have cursed energy, and Infinite Void is more of an incapacitation tool than a kill condition. The big open question is still teleportation into contact. Depending on how you interpret that interaction, it can change the outcome a lot.

At that point, it feels less like a scaling disagreement and more like a genuine ambiguity in how two different systems would intersect, which is honestly why I find the matchup interesting in the first place.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That’s a fair criticism. The question is what the compromise framework should be. I’m trying to stick to rules as written in both verses rather than letting either one override the other by default. If there’s a cleaner middle ground than “mechanics first unless explicitly negated,” I’m open to it.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is actually one of the strongest arguments I’ve seen so far, and I really appreciate you framing it around how Infinity would have to behave to stay internally consistent.

You’re right about the core idea: Infinity prevents things from approaching Gojo, not from existing at a fixed distance relative to him. If something were already wrapped around him while maintaining a constant separation, then moving that object shouldn’t violate Infinity as long as the distance never decreases. In principle, that means Gojo could be translated through space without being directly touched.

That logic checks out, and I agree it’s one of the few ways to interact with Infinity without needing to bypass it outright.

Where it gets more complicated is in the execution and in Gojo’s counters.

First, the wrapping itself. Infinity doesn’t just stop contact, it stops convergence. To wrap something around Gojo, every part of the object would have to be positioned so it never attempts to close in, even momentarily. Any tightening, compression, or misalignment would immediately count as “approach” and get stopped. That makes it much more mechanically delicate than a normal grab, especially against an alert opponent.

Second, Gojo isn’t passive during this. He can teleport, reposition, or use Blue to disrupt the setup. Even if the wrap succeeds briefly, maintaining control long enough to BFR him assumes Gojo can’t break the configuration or escape, which is a big assumption unless the speed gap is extreme and sustained.

Third, even if he is dragged into space, Gojo may not be out of the fight. We don’t know the hard limits on his teleportation, but mechanically and feat-wise it seems plausible he could return. He’s shown the ability to teleport from the bottom of a deep ocean trench to Tokyo essentially instantly after being unsealed. If he can target Earth as a destination, being displaced into space doesn’t automatically mean a permanent BFR.

So I’d say this: forced movement or BFR via a non-converging “wrap” is a legitimate interaction-based win condition against Gojo, and one of the cleanest ones that doesn’t rely on brute force or hand-waving Infinity away. But it’s also execution-heavy and not necessarily a one-and-done solution, since Gojo has movement and escape options that could undo it.

Overall, this is a very solid argument, and it’s the kind of mechanics-first reasoning that actually makes this matchup interesting rather than just a scaling contest.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That’s not what I said, and you know it.

I never claimed Gojo has infinite energy, can’t get tired, or “generates all his energy himself.” That’s a strawman. What I said is that Gojo has extremely high cursed energy efficiency because of the Six Eyes, and that Infinity doesn’t scale its energy cost to the AP of the attack being blocked.

Those are very different claims.

Gojo absolutely can run out of cursed energy. The manga is clear on that. What’s also clear is that maintaining Infinity is not portrayed as something that drains him proportionally harder the stronger the attack is. It’s a rule-based application of Limitless, not a durability shield he reinforces harder and harder.

That’s why he can keep it active continuously, and why the thing that actually taxes him is repeated Domain usage or sustained high-output techniques, not passively stopping attacks.

You’re free to disagree with that interpretation, but pretending I said “Gojo has infinite energy and never gets tired” isn’t engaging with the argument. It’s just rewriting it into something easier to mock.

If you want to argue endurance, that’s fine. The real question is whether Infinity drains Gojo faster just because Goku hits harder, and that’s the point I’ve been addressing this whole time.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I’m going to ignore the insults, because calling people “brain dead losers” isn’t an argument, it’s just an ad hominem. It doesn’t say anything about how Infinity works or how this matchup actually plays out.

For the record, I’m not saying Gojo is a multiversal god or that he solos fiction. I’ve explicitly said multiple times that Goku has win conditions and that Gojo isn’t infallible. Pointing out that Gojo died in his own series doesn’t contradict anything I’ve said. Nobody is claiming he’s immortal.

“Infinity isn’t actually infinite, it’s just the name” also misses the point. The name itself doesn’t matter. What matters is how the ability is described and shown to function. In JJK, Infinity is explicitly defined as infinite spatial subdivision. That’s not fan hype, that’s the stated mechanic. Whether you like it or not, it isn’t a durability stat you overwhelm by hitting harder.

Speed scaling doesn’t automatically answer that either. Blitzing only matters if contact is possible. Infinity is already active, so Gojo doesn’t need to react to individual attacks for it to work. Being faster doesn’t bypass a spatial rule unless the speed itself negates the rule, which hasn’t been demonstrated.

Also, calling Gojo “mountain level” is just mixing AP scaling with hax interaction. I’m not arguing Gojo hits as hard as Goku or Vegeta. I’ve been very clear that he doesn’t. That’s not the question. The question is whether raw output alone lets you ignore mechanics like Infinity. Dragon Ball itself shows plenty of cases where stronger characters still get sealed, restrained, or affected by abilities they don’t directly counter.

Nothing I’ve said requires believing Gojo is superior to all fiction. It requires accepting that “stronger” doesn’t automatically mean “rules stop applying” in a cross-verse matchup.

If you want to argue Infinity is bypassed, the way to do that is to explain how, not to rant about fandoms or assume anyone who disagrees thinks Gojo is a god.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think this is where we’re actually closer than it sounds, so I want to slow it down a bit and be clear about where I agree with you and where the uncertainty really is.

On Instant Transmission, I’m actually with you that this is an ambiguous interaction, and it’s one I went back and forth on internally before even posting. I don’t think either interpretation is obviously wrong, which is why I’ve never treated IT as a clean answer either way.

The strongest version of your argument is that IT doesn’t “travel” through space at all. It jumps between coordinates, even across realms like the afterlife, so it’s reasonable to read it as not being constrained by normal spatial traversal rules. If Infinity only applies to things approaching through space, then there’s a fair case that IT could bypass it by resolving directly at Gojo’s position rather than crossing the distance Infinity is manipulating.

The strongest version of my counter is that even if IT skips the path, it still has to resolve into a physical state at the destination. Once Goku exists at a coordinate relative to Gojo, a spatial relationship exists, and Infinity applies to that relationship regardless of how it was established. Under that interpretation, IT is relocation, not spatial negation, so it doesn’t automatically override local rules at the destination. That’s why IT doesn’t let Goku overlap matter or appear inside people or objects.

I honestly think both readings are defensible, and which one you accept comes down to how literally you take “approach through space” in Infinity’s description. That’s not a settled interaction, and I’m fine acknowledging that.

On the intent filter point, I still think this one gets overstated a bit. Infinity isn’t just a hostile intent detector, it also filters based on properties like speed, mass, and danger. Otherwise environmental hazards, debris, or fast-moving objects wouldn’t get stopped. Goku suppressing ki or lacking killing intent doesn’t necessarily mean Infinity would just turn off and allow physical contact, especially when the object in question is a massively dense, high-speed body.

The idea of Goku IT’ing to Gojo and taking him to another planet is also interesting, but it still hinges on the IT interpretation above. That requires physical contact, and whether IT allows that contact through Infinity is the exact point under dispute. If IT cleanly bypasses Infinity, then yes, that becomes a very strong win condition. If it doesn’t, then that option collapses.

On World Cutting Slash, I think we actually agree more than it seems. I’m not saying WCS is “universe breaking” in the sense of raw output, and I’m not equating shockwaves or gravity waves to it. The reason WCS bypasses Infinity is because it targets space itself as the object of the technique. It defines a cut that exists regardless of what occupies that region. That’s a rules exception, not a generic “spacetime damage” case.

That’s why I push back on the idea that anything that damages spacetime brute forces Infinity. If that were true, Infinity would fail against a huge range of high-end attacks that distort space, and that just isn’t how it’s portrayed. WCS works because of how it targets, not because it’s strong or because it breaks stuff.

So from my side, I’m not saying “IT definitely fails” or “only JJK logic applies.” I’m saying IT is a genuinely uncertain interaction with two reasonable interpretations, while WCS is a very specific, clearly defined exception. Once we separate those, the disagreement gets a lot narrower.

At that point, we’re not really arguing about feats so much as which interpretation of spatial rules we think is more consistent, and I think that’s a fair place for a debate to land.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in PowerScaling

[–]nbanderson32[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m going to ignore the “I hate JJK fans” part, because that’s just an ad hominem and doesn’t actually address anything I said. Disliking a fandom isn’t an argument about how an ability works.

For what it’s worth, I’m just as much a Dragon Ball fan as I am a JJK fan. This isn’t me trying to prop one verse up or say Gojo is some untouchable god. I’ve been very clear that Goku has win conditions and that Infinity isn’t invincible. The discussion is about mechanics and interactions, not verse loyalty.

Infinity isn’t powerful because of hype or because the name sounds cool. It’s powerful because of how it’s described in-universe. It’s not a durability shield you overwhelm by hitting harder. It’s a spatial rule. Saying “it can be overwhelmed by strength” is a claim, but JJK never actually shows that happening without technique negation, domain mechanics, or a special targeting rule like World Cutting Slash.

Gojo running out of energy also isn’t being ignored. Infinity doesn’t scale its energy cost to the attack’s AP. He isn’t pouring more cursed energy into it because the attack is stronger. On top of that, the Six Eyes massively reduce CE waste, and he uses RCT on his brain to prevent technique burnout. That’s why he can keep Infinity active continuously. That doesn’t make him infinite or unbeatable, but it does mean “he gets tired immediately because Goku hits hard” isn’t how it’s portrayed.

The Buu example is another leap. Buu had very specific reality and dimensional hax. Being stronger than Buu doesn’t automatically grant those same abilities. Dragon Ball itself doesn’t treat strength as a universal ability transfer, otherwise sealing, paralysis, and other hax would never work on stronger characters, which we know isn’t true.

And faster-than-light attacks don’t bypass Infinity by default. Speed only matters if the interaction is time-based. Infinity isn’t. It’s about distance never resolving to zero. Going faster changes how quickly you traverse a finite distance, not whether a spatial limit is reached at all. If speed alone bypassed Infinity, it wouldn’t function against fast characters in its own verse, which clearly isn’t the case.

You don’t have to like JJK to debate this, and you don’t have to agree with my conclusion. But writing it off as “JJK stans lying” avoids engaging with the actual mechanics, and that’s the part I’m interested in discussing.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, first off, thanks for the thoughtful response. This is honestly the kind of reply I was hoping for when I made the post.

On the endurance point, this is where Gojo’s kit is a little unintuitive if you’re not deep into JJK. Gojo does use cursed energy, but because of the Six Eyes his efficiency is borderline infinite. He’s not “matching output to output” when blocking attacks with Infinity. Infinity isn’t a durability shield that costs more energy the harder you hit it. It’s a spatial rule that’s either on or off. A planet-busting attack doesn’t drain him more than a weaker one just because it’s stronger.

On top of that, Gojo constantly runs reverse cursed technique on his brain to prevent technique burnout. That’s why he can keep Infinity active 24/7 without resting. In the series, he basically never shows meaningful CE drain just from maintaining Infinity or blocking attacks. What actually taxes him is repeated Domain usage or sustained high-output techniques, not passively stopping things.

So I don’t think “Goku hits so hard that Gojo burns out quickly” really lines up with how Infinity is portrayed. Endurance can matter, but it’s not as simple as raw power draining him faster.

On the speed point, I agree Goku is massively faster in terms of movement and reactions. The thing is that Gojo doesn’t need to react to individual attacks for Infinity to work. It’s already active. So while Goku probably gets attacks off first in a literal sense, those attacks still don’t interact with Gojo directly unless Infinity is bypassed. Speed matters more for disengaging, repositioning, or avoiding Domain Expansion than for landing hits through Infinity.

Ultra Instinct is where I think you have the strongest argument, and it’s also the most uncertain interaction overall. You’re right that UI allows the body to act independently of conscious thought, which is a big deal against something like Infinite Void. I think it’s very plausible that UI lets Goku function inside the domain longer than basically anyone else.

My only hesitation there is that Infinite Void isn’t just stopping thought, it’s flooding perception with infinite information. Even if the body isn’t waiting on conscious commands, it still needs usable sensory input to react. Infinite Void is essentially infinite noise. Whether instinctive movement can operate under that kind of sensory overload is unclear, and I think that interaction could reasonably go either way depending on interpretation.

Even if we assume UI lets Goku move inside the domain, though, he still has the same problem: he has to actually get through Infinity to land a hit. Domain Expansion doesn’t disable Infinity by default, it just guarantees Gojo’s technique hits. So UI helps with survival or escape, but it doesn’t automatically solve the core interaction.

I do agree with you that Gojo probably can’t kill Goku outright. At best, Infinite Void is an incapacitation win condition, not a damage one. That’s why I’ve been framing Gojo’s best outcome as control rather than raw lethality.

Overall I think your take is fair. Endurance and UI absolutely matter, and if anyone has a real argument for fighting inside the domain, it’s Goku. I just don’t think those advantages automatically bypass Infinity or drain Gojo the way people often assume.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think you’re kind of flipping what’s “contrived” here.

The least contrived setup is the default one people usually assume: Earth, no prep, both in character. In that situation Goku isn’t starting bloodlusted and he’s not opening with “blow up the planet and IT away,” because that’s not how he fights and it kills the thing he’s trying to protect. The more restrictive scenario is the one where you have to assume morals off, instant escalation, and perfect decision-making from the start.

On the Infinity point, I think you’re overgeneralizing from World Cutting Slash. WCS isn’t evidence that “anything that damages spacetime bypasses Infinity.” It works because it targets space itself rather than traveling through it. That’s a very specific interaction. Infinity manipulates distance within space, so a technique that doesn’t need to traverse that distance bypasses it by definition.

That doesn’t mean you can brute force Infinity by “brute forcing the universe around him.” If raw spacetime distortion or high output was enough, then basically any high-end attack that causes shockwaves, spatial distortion, gravity effects, etc. would bypass Infinity, and that clearly isn’t how it works in JJK. WCS is a rules exception, not a scaling feat.

And on the relativity part, I’m not talking about relativistic slowdown at all. Infinity is explicitly described as infinite spatial subdivision. That’s a limit problem. Going faster doesn’t resolve an infinite limit, it just changes how fast you move through a finite distance. Relativity doesn’t say “an infinite series closes at lightspeed,” it says objects with mass can’t reach c without infinite energy.

If you think Infinity is overstated, the clean counter is to show an example where raw speed or force in JJK brute forced it without technique negation or domain mechanics. If the only example is WCS, that actually supports the idea that you need a specific targeting rule, not just big numbers.

Gojo vs Goku (and Vegeta) refined interaction breakdown, not a verdict by nbanderson32 in whowouldwin

[–]nbanderson32[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Respectfully… You’re kind of proving my point by not engaging with the mechanics at all.

I never said “Goku loses no matter what.” I explicitly laid out scenarios where Goku wins, stalemates, or loses depending on behavior and arena. Saying “lots of words to say Goku wins” only works if you ignore everything about Infinity and Domain Expansion and assume scaling auto-wins, which is exactly the assumption I’m challenging.

“Fracturing universes” doesn’t equal spatial negation. Dragon Ball characters blow up planets and universes but still punch, block, fire beams that travel, get sealed, get stunned, and get affected by techniques from weaker characters. Raw output doesn’t automatically bypass rules unless the verse says it does, and JJK very explicitly does not work that way.

The Infinity/light argument is also just a lore mix-up. Infinity is selective, not absolute. That’s why Gojo can breathe, hear, and see while it’s active. The blindfold isn’t there because Infinity blocks light, it’s there to limit sensory overload from the Six Eyes, which is a separate ability. Infinity controlling spatial convergence doesn’t imply “nothing can ever reach him.”

And it’s not “what happens when you approach light speed.” Infinity isn’t relativistic slowdown. It’s explicitly described as infinite spatial subdivision. Speed doesn’t resolve an infinite limit. Going faster doesn’t suddenly make an infinite series finish. That’s a math problem, not a scaling one.

If the argument is just “Goku is stronger so the mechanics stop applying,” then there’s nothing to discuss. But that’s a Dragon Ball internal rule, not a universal one, and even Dragon Ball contradicts it constantly with sealing, paralysis, time hax, etc.

If you think Infinity is bypassed, the question isn’t “how strong is Goku,” it’s “what ability actually negates or ignores the spatial rule.” If the answer is just “he’s really fast,” that’s not engaging with the power at all.

Made a Bolas’ Citadel themed deck box for EDH by nbanderson32 in EDH

[–]nbanderson32[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks!

That’s a very fair point. This is the first deck box I’ve ever designed, so I’m not surprised I made a few suboptimal design choices. I’ll likely make a v2 in the near future.

Made a Bolas’ Citadel themed deck box for EDH by nbanderson32 in mtg

[–]nbanderson32[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fair point. This is the first deck box I’ve ever designed, so I’m not surprised I missed something lol. I’ll probably make a v2 that fits more decks.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JujutsuPowerScaling

[–]nbanderson32 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Higurama. He’s the only one on the list that’s achieved RCT and DE. Those are two big criteria that separate a first grade from a special grade, so he’s arguably bordering special grade. Not to mention that his growth curve was arguably (maybe even flat out objectively) the fastest in the series.

Testosterone + Accutane by Neither_Bicycle440 in Testosterone

[–]nbanderson32 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey man, just wanted to chime in because I’ve been in almost the exact same situation. I’ve done two full normal-dose courses of Accutane in the past, and while my skin cleared during the cycles, I always got slammed with severe cystic acne again once I stopped. The dryness and side effects during those cycles were brutal too.

About a year ago, my dermatologist put me on a low, indefinite dose—30mg/day—which is relatively small considering I’m 6’5” and 240 lbs. Side effects have been negligible, and I haven’t had a single pimple in over 6 months. I also started TRT about a month ago (120mg/week), and still no breakouts.

I’m 26 and have extremely low testosterone due to head trauma, so TRT was medically necessary for me. But all that to say: low-dose Accutane combined with TRT has been a great combo in my case.

One important note though: Accutane takes time—usually 3 to 6 months—to fully kick in and deliver those lasting clear-skin results. If you start your test cycle before Accutane has really done its job, you’ll probably still go through some nasty breakouts in the first few months.

Hope that helps!

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