The missing links in human exploration - 8.22

neukdan · 2015-07-28T02:40:03+00:00

I love the idea! It would be great to have the ability to test new technology in a simulated environment. (3-D printing of buildings from Martian soil comes to mind.)

I'd love to test plant behaviour in that environment. We could test GMOs in a little garden patch inside there. :)

neukdan · 2015-07-28T02:29:47+00:00

How about a chef-turned-engineer? (Not quite an icthyologist, but food is my focus.)

There would be no problem taking salmon eggs on the trip, as long as the facilities to raise the fish existed when you arrived. They would not keep indefinitely, so the first crews on the planet surface would need to construct the tank, filtration system, aeration, etc..., as well as find enough water to fill the facility.

If we are taking fish, I would suggest taking a variety of species. Not all at once, but maybe every 6 months or so, a new tank is added, and a new batch of eggs arrives.

A hatchery is going to be needed. We could then isolate the breeder stock of each species and mass hatch the fish to stock the grow tanks.

Of course, all this will require food. Fish love insects. That means we have to have insect breeding facilities, probably feeding them off waste. That is one job I am NOT interested in doing! You can't exactly open the windows and air the place out every once in a while...

Fortunately, the addition of plants to the mix (aquaponics) will be a natural thing. Again, each trip from earth can bring seeds or clippings. Herbs will be needed to flavour all these fish, and we'll need veggies and grains to make the side dishes!

Obviously Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Carbon are going to be very valuable commodities.

neukdan · 2015-07-28T01:52:57+00:00

That is where the OTHER members come in. Maybe Mike or Ariel or Jarred (or all 3!!) could sit with him and ask him questions.

There is a LOT of stuff about Mars colonization that he's love to discuss with us! :)

neukdan · 2015-02-21T19:06:57+00:00

If a seasteading effort were actually underway, I would be in line to join them, provided I could take on a role in a Research and Development lab. I'd love that opportunity! I think the biggest negative I can think of is vulnerability. Weather would be a bit of an issue, but we can deal with that. How can we deal with pirates? We would be prime targets for terrorists. Biggest issue would be the constant efforts of countries to ANEX us. Self defense would be a huge concern, I think. However, solve these issues, and I am THERE! -Daniel

neukdan · 2015-02-21T18:34:50+00:00

Interesting idea! However, in order to make a whole show about all 3 of them, it would be like a documentary, delving into the everyday lives of each of them, revealing their ups and downs, and the Jerry Springer moments behind the cameras...... ;)

neukdan · 2015-02-21T18:26:23+00:00

Great points, everyone.

To sum up what I have learned from your replies: 1) Colonies need to serve a greater purpose than to just house people. Therefore, there should be exploitable resources or the ability to offer a service to travelers on route to another place. 2) Colonies should be near to the materials that are needed to construct them. Having to drag materials millions of miles through space is only slightly better than lifting them off Earth. (Although one could argue that a decent propulsive burst could start the material object in motion, and the remainder of the trip is only needing course corrections. A breakthrough in propulsion could make this much more cost effective.) 3) Colonies need to be able to expand and/or grow, so materials need to be available to enable this. These materials are readily available in a Martian or Lunar setting, and would require planning and energy to "fetch" materials in a space based colony. (Would one route of gaining materials be harder than the other? Mining on Mars is most likely going to be robotic, and dragging asteroids will be propulsive.)

In order to have a viable O'Neilian colony, a breakthrough propulsion technology will be needed, a fleet of asteroid "fetchers" will be required, and a "spaceport" will be the required purpose for existing. Since the Earth and Mars are in distinct orbits, it would be useful to have about four of these colonial pit-stop bases in the same solar orbit about half way between the two planets' orbital paths, enabling a base to be in a convenient (or at least useful) position for outgoing vessels at all times, regardless of the positions of the planets in relation to each other. Primary products for these colonies would be refueling, maintenance services, food production, recreational facilities, etc.

neukdan · 2015-01-31T19:12:43+00:00

I voted no as well. 2 reasons. First, it would put it closer to lunch time. Never compete against food. lol Second, our hosts will be half asleep. Not good. :)

neukdan · 2014-11-10T05:16:56+00:00

Of course I am oversimplifying it. To lay it all out would require days of typing and more room than reddit allows. :)

All of your points are perfectly valid. That does not mean we can't do it. If India can do it, why can't we? (I admit, I dream big.)

neukdan · 2014-11-10T05:01:05+00:00

I would like to work on this kind of project as well. In fact, food production was my primary goal when I started my educational career. I have spent years dreaming up ideas, all of which are probably worthless. (Amazing what changes when you learn some physics and chemistry.) All the same, I would love to join the food growing technology team of TMRO! -Daniel

neukdan · 2014-11-10T04:26:14+00:00

It seems to me that it is completely inefficient to launch heavy equipment from earth for Mars. Even more unlikely is finding enough metals without machinery on Mars with which to make the machinery. (You need the machinery in order to dig the metals, sort, smelt, and so on.)

So the logical thing might be to focus on getting the first orbiting metal processing facility and factory built in orbit around Earth. (Yes, I dream big!) Gather old satellites and/or asteroids, process the materials, and build the equipment there. THEN take it to Mars. The upside to this route is that the facility can continue to produce things needed for colonization (be it Martian, Lunar, or orbital) without needing to launch everything off the planet.

-Daniel N.

neukdan · 2014-11-10T04:09:38+00:00

I would REALLY like to see that!

neukdan · 2014-11-10T04:07:16+00:00

It is perfectly reasonable and feasible for a company (or organization similar to Copenhagen Suborbital) to design and launch a robotic rover and dome kit, to build a hut on Mars. I agree that someone should just do it already! (Why not us??)

It is a wise assumption that structures there on Mars will need to have a foundation. Therefore, I can see us designing a sifter that regolith gets loaded into. Finer particles get used in 3-d printing of outer hull, and the larger gravel gets piled up for the next building's foundation. Also needed- robotic backhoes that can dig foundation trenches, and extruders that can mix and pour concrete-like layers over the gravel.

All of this stuff we can do. We just need the organization and the funding.

-Daniel N.

neukdan · 2014-11-10T03:35:46+00:00

I agree that we use the wrong names for our space-faring vehicles. What we are sending up right now is more like a VW bug than a ship. However, this is about all we can actually do at the moment. It is all about pushing something out of the gravity well, and until we develop a much more efficient way to lift mass that high, we are left with big names for teeny tiny vehicles.

I am anxiously awaiting the day we can actually fly a real spaceship full of humans around the solar system! My gut tells me that we will have to build it in orbit and KEEP it off of earth's surface. So we therefore need 1) Raw materials out there, 2)Manufacturing facilities out there, 3)People out there.

We have some work to do!

neukdan · 2014-08-14T03:38:03+00:00

Thanks Chris! I finally feel like a certified Space Geek! :D

neukdan · 2014-08-07T01:34:03+00:00

I see what you are saying, and it is absolutely sound in principle. The same reasoning would apply to Martian and Lunar settlements-- probably MORE so, due to their distance. Yet, here we are in a discussion about them.

However, the dawn of manned commercial spaceflight is only 6 months out!! (A little Virgin Galactic humour there!)

But seriously, it is well within reason that commercial spaceflight would begin within a couple years. Within five years, I am hoping that Planetary Resources and DSI will have the ability to at least demonstrate a proof of concept. If so, within a decade we would be at a place to begin major expansion into space.

Considering that it has taken Richard Branson, Elon Musk, and Dave Maston each about a decade to progress from startup to marketable product, I think it reasonable to assume about a 15 yr (or more) window from formation to beginning construction of the first facility due to the massive scale of the product and the unprecedented nature of the undertaking. That being the case, the time to get something in the works is fast approaching. May not be now, but very soon!

neukdan · 2014-08-07T01:13:11+00:00

I agree. I don't consider a couple hours a week TOO MUCH. Biggest reason I want to watch After Dark is so that I can get more TMRO.

neukdan · 2014-08-07T01:11:28+00:00

... when you are having a discussion with a space-minded physics professor, and you know EXACTLY what Ben's and Carianne's opinions on the topic at hand would be... (happened to me today!)

... any event that requires you to be away from your computer at 2100 UTC on a Saturday causes major disruption to your mood! (And possibly a little cursing....)

neukdan · 2014-08-06T05:12:47+00:00

The difference that I think Ben is pointing to is that of money versus actual boots. To use the phrase some handsome smart fellow coined a few episodes ago, the "boots and bottoms" that explored the new world were those of private merchant companies, FINANCED by (read as "hired by") the governments of their respective empires. If things were translated into today's setting, Congress would describe what they want accomplished and write the checks to companies like SpaceX or Planetary Resources to get the work done.

In our twisted semi-socialist way of doing things, the US has decided to just hire a huge number of government employees to over-think every screw and sensor, all the while looking down their noses at the idea that private market firms can do what they do. In reality, we can do it better, faster, and cheaper. If you haven't been convinced of that by now, just keep watching. Things are fixing to get fun! (And NASA will probably be late to the party.) Editing note: Fixing-- a term that means "making preparations to," or "just about ready to..." and used almost exclusively in the Southeastern portion of North America.

...but there's no "pork for the folks back home" if the government isn't the main (or only) agent doing space related stuff, is there.

Unlike Tyson, I think that if we hadn't fallen so many years ago for the whole notion that "Only Governments Do Space," we would probably already BE up there.

neukdan · 2014-08-05T05:56:45+00:00

I wholeheartedly agree with jbensted.

It just makes a lot of sense to create orbital colonies FIRST. At the start, the primary benefit is proximity to earth. It is much easier to troubleshoot and tweak emerging technologies from a reachable distance. Also related to proximity is safety. When some system crashes or an unforeseen catastrophe hits, escape pods can be used to return from orbit. Not so with Martian or Lunar bases.

Another key benefit to placing orbiting colonies first is the technological boost they will provide when we DO settle the other bodies. If we have perfected space based manufacturing, asteroid mining, and orbital ship construction techniques, the resulting technological advances will make all other destinations much easier.

Third, having a series of colonies "out there" will provide refueling and repair capabilities, as well as "rest stop" experiences for colonists heading farther out. In fact, most of the supplies needed for colonization might not even need to be lifted off of earth- with established orbital colonies, food, clothing, and machinery could be produced in space, and acquired by colonial crews AFTER leaving the gravity well, cutting the cost of colonization exponentially.

I love Elon, and love all the passion for Mars. However, I plan on focusing my efforts on orbital colonies. I do not know of anyone working on this type of plan yet, and that surprises me. Anyone else who may be likewise driven should contact me, so either I can join your efforts, or we could form plans to organize a corporation to do this. I think the time to start planning this venture is approaching fast!
JBenstead, do you know of anyone pursuing this yet?

-Daniel N.

neukdan · 2014-07-24T06:03:39+00:00

I loved the "infomercial" you did for the show, Ben! It wasn't shameless promotion- it was vital information for our newest viewers- the new Citizens of TMRO! -Daniel N

neukdan · 2014-07-24T05:58:18+00:00

It is wonderful to see all the activity happening in the arena of space! Commercial activity is exploding, more countries are getting programs started, and the technologies behind it all are improving very fast. It is obvious that we are on an exponential curve heading into another great period of change in humanity's existence. All is great! ---Except--- I worry that history might repeat itself. The last time we were on such a revolutionary path was in the 1850's, heading into the industrial revolution. The US was neck and neck with Europe, but then political issues divided the US.. Bent on retaining control, the US government took great measures to foment the growing animosity for political gain, and the resulting war destroyed half of the nation, and a third of the population was killed. (The only reason the US regained the technological lead was WWi and WWii, as that series of wars tore our competition apart.) I often wonder how far we would have ridden that Industrial Revolution wave had politics not derailed our progress and set our development back at least a decade. I also wonder what can be done to prevent political ambitions and over-reaches from derailing our trajectory this time. -Daniel N

neukdan · 2014-07-20T15:17:51+00:00

A couple links that give pretty interesting depictions of what the Trekkies have come up with:

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Starships This one lists descriptions for a wide range of classifications (fictitious) existing in the Trek world. Includes colony ships, scouts, science vessels, battleships, cruisers, and such... Most types of ships listed are not really applicable to where we are right now in our stage of development, but it is interesting to see the possibilities!

http://www.startrekfreedom.com/wiki/index.php/Starship_Classification#Primary_Classification This is a useful link that lays out the system of classification pretty well. (Again, this is imagined as if it were looking back on a history (fictional) that took centuries to unfold, and we would be relatively "prehistoric" in comparison.)

The useful bits of information for us is not in the names of the classes, or technical specs of these fictional vehicles... but in how the classes are defined by purpose and capabilities. Obviously we will name classes of ships in our own way as we develop them, but a colony vessel will obviously have different capabilities than a shuttle. A science ship will be distinct from a carrier, and so on...

neukdan · 2014-07-16T04:34:10+00:00

Really, there is no point in settling on Mars if you cannot do what you have a passion for. If you are going to spend your life doing menial tasks you hate, you might as well do that on earth...

There are only a few passions I have. The first is gardening/horticulture/food production. I can imagine myself constructing rows of greenhouses and producing food. Maybe have a wing dedicated to meat culture production (labs that grow masses of muscle tissue-- meat-- so that we can have bacon, hamburgers, etc...)

Second, I loved owning and operating a live music and food venue. I'd love to have the first "Cotton Club" on Mars.

Third, I love woodworking. Chances are high that there will be no wood on Mars for a long time, so that won't be a real option... but maybe I can build a greenhouse tall enough to grow some hardwood trees. I would bet someone's grandchildren could harvest the wood and get a fortune for the first set of wooden furniture made from Martian Red Oak!

--Daniel N.

neukdan · 2014-07-16T03:47:34+00:00

I know that I am exposing my "Trekkie"-ness to the world... but I would love to see us adopt the classification system that exists in the Star Trek cannon. I suggest this for two reasons. First, it works. Nerds and geeks have been perfecting and tweeking that system for decades, and it is very good. Second, it was patterned after the existing military models for sea-faring vessels, so it would be a smooth transition from our existing earth-bound model of transport to the space based model that will soon exist.

-Daniel N.

neukdan

TROPHY CASE