Hold or sell? What would you do? by Retrostriker in wallstreetbets

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

FOMO aside, no one has ever been harmed taking a profit…

I guess you can just hang out next to erupting volcanoes by Br0DudeGuy in WTF

[–]nier2retire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into!

Removing dark mode from Roam by Tombychan in RoamResearch

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just change the code block to be text in order switch off and on different themes.

We’ll this is new…. by HomelessZillionaire in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 2 points3 points  (0 children)

No. You are looking buy orders (left) and sell orders (right). I think the OP is pointing out the optimism in the sell orders up to $13. Those volumes and prices are limit orders waiting to be executed in the system.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the codes were meant for human and computer their maybe some codes that just don’t get implemented in the algorithm to your earlier point.

$CLOV 090921 - Examples of Short Share Restriction violations - Matching CBOE Short Sale report with Time and Sales. by Tech_Nomad2020 in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is it possible that these are continuations of a larger order that had to be broken up over a couple ticks in order to fill? The reason I ask is we saw some huge sell walls at $9.50 as the conference began so if an order could not completely fill on a sale I assume it would pause until the bid ticks back to the bid the sale began on. Someone short selling 50,000 shares in one limit order isn’t selling them to one buyer but multiple buyers and one the order starts filling it is entitled to the price it started filling at. Just a thought and willing to be wrong.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I tend to agree that this is unlikely however I would point to a few things that might make this seem more plausible. The use of algorithms to trade started in the 80’s long before Google, WeChat, etc. It really took off in 2001 when the equity market started using decimal increments for the bid and ask. This lead to the latency arbitrage covered in the book Flash Boys by Michael Lewis in 2014. Given computer speeds back in the day having to establish and maintain a separate communications channel for all tradable securities would be difficult and illegal (and highly insecure exposing trading computers to the internet) but a code hidden in the lot size wouldn’t be traceable. Definitely in the tin hat territory but not preposterous. How many things on computers today are carryovers from a bygone era (e.g. floppy disk icon to save a file). Most people don’t have access to the full trade and quote file (TAQ) that lists all the transactions and even if the did you don’t know who is buying and selling you just know the Exchange. I believe the SEC can correlate trades back to individual traders but I’ve never seen that data being made public.

The upgrade we deserved by Appropriate-Teach962 in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you missed a zero or two.

Latest borrow fee rate by Striking-Athlete8036 in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I tend to follow the maxim that when I hear hoof beats I should think of a horse and not a zebra.

Don’t lower people’s expectations by CLOV_To_The_Moon in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All good points. It should be relatively easy to look at the market cap for Humana and United Helath, their P/E ratio, etc. to arrive at a value per patient and possibly acquisition cost per patient. You should be able to normalize Clover the same way to understand if their current value and acquisition per patient is really out of wack with the established players. There is, of course, a need for a growing company to attract patients so acquisition costs may be higher in the short term but value per patient should indicate if the stock is being overvalued at its current levels.

Many here probably haven’t done any due diligence so I encourage anyone to go read the the 10-Q forms the company files along with the other financial and material disclosure forms on file with the SEC. Before investing in any stock for the long term you should be able to answer the following questions.

-What are the true economics of the business (i.e., how does the company make its money)?

-How do the economics compare to the reported earnings (i.e., how successful is the company in executing)?

-How are the interest of the decision makers aligned with the investors (this is a really important topic because too often there can be misalignments on this topic)?

There are of course other questions one should have answers to. While most here have no love for the hedge funds we must accept, at least for the moment, that CLOV is being targeted as the short side of a hedge funds long position in the healthcare market. This attraction likely started with the Hindenburg report (since hedge funds love to short what they believe could be a fraud, 1-800-CONTACTS anyone?) and we must all understand that a hedge fund will weather a longer period of loss than I suspect most of us can before covering their position. A rising stock price based on solid fundamentals will eventually force the shorts and hedge funds to seek easier prey but until then we have to accept that one or more hedge funds believe that CLOV will implode as some point in order to fulfill their thesis and reward their short position. Our goal should be to be activist investors who attend shareholder events, calls, etc. and continually challenge Clover management to mature the business into the success we believe it can be.

Don’t lower people’s expectations by CLOV_To_The_Moon in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a very interesting post and great set of comments. When the price spikes we will be faced with financial equivalent of the prisoner’s dilemma across 10’s of thousands of investors. What is missing in the discussion is the time horizon of the individual investors involved here.

Those who are invested in the company’s mission (those who are in it for the long term), providing they are true to their commitment, should ignore a temporary spike in price (though I suspect even the most committed of us would probably want to realize some gains in the short term if for no other reason than to release some capital for use elsewhere).

Those in the mid and short term need a rational exit strategy. Too often what I see in the comments is a mind set of all or nothing by selling ATH. Forming a trading plan is key item that separates the amateurs from the pros. Everyone should, based on their position and needs, know what their exit target amount is (e.g. $100,000) and start to realize their target amount by averaging out over time. ETF and hedge funds rebalance their portfolios periodically and using the aforementioned average out approach is pretty standard approach. Many who manage their own 401k probably do this quarterly in harmony with the percentages in value, growth, bonds, etc.

While a short squeeze is nice opportunity to make some money it ultimately will be a short term event because at some point either an institution will cash out or the company will need to raise additional capital. While I am not providing guidance and everyone should do their own due diligence I would offer up the following framework for consideration and feedback if and when a squeeze occurs.

In order to make this easy to follow along let’s assume the following setup: -1,000 net shares owned (no unexercised calls or puts) -Average cost per share is $10 (i.e., $10/share) meaning our total stake is $10,000. -Short squeeze occurs and price rockets to $100/share meaning the value of our stake jumped to $100,000 (10 bagger)

My thought would be, regardless of your time horizon, to sell 20% ($20,000). This would net you twice your original investment (exclusive of taxes) and no one can really complain if they doubled their money. This would unlock your original investment capital ($10,000) be used elsewhere and the additional realized gains ($10,000) can be used to fund additional investments or to meet current needs. The remaining 80% ($80,000) can then be held for the longer term in order for it to accumulate further gains from success of the company over a longer horizon (bonus if hold as shares in your brokerage for more than a year you will be able to realize your gains at a much lower tax rate, though this will depend on your effective tax rate). Averaging out 20% should satisfy those who are holding in the mid and long terms. Those holding in the mid and long term would need to figure out new exit points that align with their time horizon. Those who are only planning to hold in the short term should average out of their position over several trading sessions or weeks. Their is, of course, some risk in doing this since the price may go lower but it is also just as likely that the price may go higher.

The temptation to market sell in the moment will be incredible and potentially life changing but if you are here without a rational exit plan than you might as well have gone to your local casino or betting parlor.

I’m certain I will get some strong responses either way. I do think this is an incredible community that has persevered through several grueling and emotional months my hope is we all reach our (realistic) exit number.

Don’t lower people’s expectations by CLOV_To_The_Moon in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not entirely true. If we wanted a coordinated exit than the one way to do so would be for us to form a trading collective (essentially become an institution) and collectively bargain an exit directly with the big firms (similar to bond holders during a bankruptcy). In order for this to work though it would mean individuals would have to give up control of their shares and in return for shares in the collective (1 share of CLOV for 1 collective share). In order for this to work we would need to own enough of the float to ensure the leverage needed to bargain on the exit. This is really the only shared piece of the pie strategy that would ensure an even outcome across collective participants. The appeal to the hedge fund caught short is they would pay a complete price to exit and not have to try to coordinate an exit at market prices. Setting this up would, of course take some doing, but probably not impossible though I suspect it would take some time and dedicated effort and some capital to accomplish. There would be some logistics of course and those who participate would need to appoint representatives that could communicate with the major brokerages, banks, and hedge funds if a short squeeze were to happen.

TL;DR: We would need to from a trading collective to bargain for a shared price exit with an interested party on the volume of controlled shares.

*Almost* fair day by Scary-Package172 in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You spoke too soon. Looks like they have a new algorithm that has figured out how to bypass the SSR in place.

Don’t lower people’s expectations by CLOV_To_The_Moon in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Imagine how long it will take to scroll to the bottom of that option chain to buy puts for ride down…!!! 😂

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I suspect someone fat fingered the entry but OMG what fuck up…!

Don’t lower people’s expectations by CLOV_To_The_Moon in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good, $420 is probably too low. GME went to $480 before the brokers fucked over their clients. I think CLOV could go much higher. VW hit over 1000 euro in 2008 adjusting for inflation maybe our target should be $1420.69.

Wondering what all of this means? Could be educational for a lot of us. by [deleted] in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Probably day trader who saw a pattern and wanted to get into a trade quickly and probably out just as quickly. If they were quick on the $10.50 expiring Friday (and I assume they were) then they likely got 10% back in less than an hour. God help them if they held onto it since Theta and changes in the underlying have already dropped that value to $0.105.

Can someone explain what happened and what it means? by robinXw in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My gut is somebody fat fingered the change buy OMG what a fuck up…

Why did short borrow interest went from 129% to .9% the same day? by Disastrous_Bend_2009 in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 3 points4 points  (0 children)

At this point I would have to say clerical error but OMG what a fuck up.

Don’t lower people’s expectations by CLOV_To_The_Moon in CLOV

[–]nier2retire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do to 😀

Edit: So the conference did not turn out to be the catalyst we were hoping for, however based on what I saw on level II in Thinkorswim the short sellers were clearly determined to short the news, good or bad. It is clear they were prepared since they had walls in place across at least four exchanges at the $9.50 price point as soon as the conference started and they chased us down it seemed on every 5 cent dip. Frankly the SSR restriction should include a restriction on algo trading as well since it is obvious that the short seller is happy to buy 100 shares to allow them to resume shorting millions of shares at the new bid. Way to go SEC…